Silk Embroidery on silk-HELP!

[Janet L]

Mr. & Mrs. Customer brought in a 50 x 60 silk embroidery ($400 purchase) they picked up in China. The embroidery work is so perfect that it looks as though it was done by machine but the customers actually watched the woman complete the piece.

Anyway...I don't have a clue as to how to begin mounting this piece. It contains 100 birds flying though branches of oriental trees. Very vibrant silk thread colors on a very thin white silk fabric. It has been folded for 14 months and is in need of pressing.

I was very honest with the couple and told them I would have to find out HOW to mount the piece before we get to the design phase.

HELP! (E-mails or posts will be greatly appreciated!)

[framechick]

What is the result they're after? Framed? in a plexi box?

At that size I would try and find a fabric that works well with the piece (60" wide)and stretch it over bars. I wonder if there would be an any advantage to using a sheet of 4 ply rag between the fabric and bars. The package would be much lighter without it. I have never mounted such a large piece of embroidery. Does it have a fabric lining or backing? Sometimes with lined embroideries, also from China I have had to address a problem with the piece sagging because the edge that was sewn to the backing was added on to the embroidery ground.

The more I type the more I realize I don't have a good answer

I will say please, please, please be careful pricing the job. The potential to lose money is great. And you are almost sure to hear the "But it only cost us $400" argument.

Good luck. Please let us know how this job progresses.

[JRB]

Hi Janet,

The piece your talking about is an old classic, it's called ( what else ) 100 birds.
I have framed that several times over the years.

I made a stretcher frame out of 1 X 2 clear pine, put a bracer bar halfway down. Tape the edges with acid free tape and mount four ply rag to the top. This is important, sand the top edge of the rag board where the silk will be stretched around. Make sure you have a smooth round edge. Stretch the silk on to your stretcher frame as you would a canvas and you ready to frame. The main thing about stretching silk is don't pull it over any sharp edges. I like to go completely around the bar and staple into the back, that gives you a little wiggle room in case you have to re-stretch it.

Silk has a memory so the only way you are going to get rid of the creases is to stretch them out. Avoid using steam on the embroidery unless you are positive that it is colorfast. If you stretch it properly, there should be no need for steam or pressing.

You may have some slight puckering in areas of the background silk that are completely surrounded by embroidery.

Be sure when you frame it that you space your glazing material away from the silk

It's not as tough a job as it seems.

John

[David Shen]

Hi Janet:

I sent you an email when you had an Oriental art on rice paper. This time, the right way to take out the creases in that embroidery is again wet-mounting it onto a high bark content rice paper. Most Chinese mounters (framers) would give you the same answer. “This guy must be kidding” you might think, “or trying desperately to get my business.” No, I am not. Even for embroidery, the Chinese framers traditionally use rice paper backing to take out the creases.

You might start to think; well, how come they use the same old thing for everything, just like the soy sauce and the sweet and sour plum sauce in every dish in a Chinese restaurant. It seems true, but there are subtle differences that are not noticeable until you get deep into it, and not every Chinese restaurant knows these subtle differences. The secret in mounting all Oriental art, be it on silk or paper, is the control of moisture, the right thickness of the starch paste and the understanding of the properties of both the artwork and the substrate it is going to be mounted on.

I suggest you mount this large embroidery yourself using wet mounting method without a rice paper backing but stretched onto a stretch bar frame covered with a foamcore and 4-ply rag. I will email you the detailed steps of what I think you should do; it’s going to be a bit too long for here.

John is right. It is a classic either called “One Hundred Birds” if it has 3 black characters, or “One Hundred Birds Facing the Phoenix” if in 4 characters. The white silk ground and bright colored threads are typical of the “Xiangxiu” or Hunan Style Embroidery, one of the four major styles. That’s where the “hot and sour soup” originated. The ones with a black lining on the back, that framechick was talking about, are “Shuxiu” or Szechuan Style. That’s where the “kongpao chicken” comes from. Much smaller pieces though. And the incredibly ornate ones with stylized motifs of dragons, phoenixes, cranes, pines, cloud and wave patterns are “Jingxiu,” or Peking Style, often seen on dragon robes with lots of gold and silver thread. The best of all however is “Suxiu,” Suzhou Style, where the most technically and artistically acclaimed product is the “double-sided embroidery.”
The ground is so thin one can see through. Both sides have images. Cats often get fooled trying to get the goldfish and knock the frame over The British Royal family was impressed when they visited Suzhou in the early 80’s and commissioned a portrait. It turned out with Charles on one side and Diana on the other in the exact image area. They must not be thinking about fengshui, because the Chinese would never put husband and wife back to back in a picture.

It’s a real challenge to frame these “double-sided.” This time you can’t use rice paper in the image area because you want to keep it transparent. So some resorted to bamboo frames for its elasticity, but others still have them pasted onto rice paper backed silk borders, sandwiched in between and glazed.

[Zorro]

STAPLES........$400.00 silk embroidery....... smooth pine edges.........STAPLES......why worry about smooth pine edges, the staples will do enough damage.!!!!!

[TRACY ART & FRAME]

I recently framed a silk scarf and asked the grumblers for there help as well.

See the post SILK SCARF

I think this idea may help.

Personaly I would be scared to wet mount a peice this large as my first venture in this technique. I don't in any way dought Mr Shen's knowledge in the feild ,put sill sounds scarry.

------------------
Diver Dave

[JRB]

Zorro, I thought staples would be a problem, they where not, angle them like you would on a canvas, it worked just fine. Try it yourself on an old piece of silk like I did. Put it up on a out of the way shelf and check it from time to time. Silk is tougher than you think it is. Early parachutes where made from the stuff. Use quarter inch staples.

If staples make you uncomfortable, it can be glued down around the edges with starch paste and held in place with tape until the paste dries. Granted staples will do damage around the edges, but what elevates silk above canvas? I have seen $10,000.00 paintings on canvas that was just stapled to the bars, no acid free board or tape on the bars, as we all have. The edges of the canvas was indeed damaged. Starch paste will also leave a crusty residue around the edges of the silk.

John

[lise]

I just finished framing a silk from China entitled "100 Boys" which must have a similar type of folklore attached to it. It had to be mounted to show the edge so we sewed it into the rag mat using a needle through drilled holes. The problem was this large crease right down the center. I had told the client that I thought I could get it out, but after ironing and a light steam, it would not come out. The customer was pleased with the frame design but was a little dissapointed that the crease was still there.
Thanks John for letting me know that silk has a memory as I've just taken on another silk piece and it looks like I'll have the same problem.

------------------
Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.

[Lance E]

The starch used to hold the silk is considerably weaker than what is uaed as a paste, several layers are added over a period of time, I would suggest getting hold of a local needleart group or one of the advisors to Just Crossstitch (http://www.just-crossstitch.com) for advise on the methods, or preferably a demo on what to do. Not easy to learn from words alone.



[This message has been edited by Lance E (edited August 31, 2001).]

[Cheryl Crocker CPF GCF]

Mr. Shen, can I get a copy of directions for mounting using wheatpaste, too? I would like to learn how to do that. Is there anything available on the different types of silks and substrates? The silk pieces I get in are usually already mounted. It would be great to learn more about this type of artform!
Thanks

[Janet L]

Thanks to all of you once again for coming to my rescue. David Shen's instructions are very precise and will not be difficult to follow (he emailed them to me and said he will post on this thread).

I thank you all for sharing your years of experience! Maybe the day will come when I can be of help to someone by sharing what you all have shared with me!

Janet

[David Shen]

Hi Cheryl:

I will be happy to send you some samples of mounted and un-mounted pieces of calligraphy on rice paper for you to compare and some blank pieces for you to use as the substrate for mounting. You will waste quite a few rolls but will get the “hang” of it eventually. I will also include some samples of silk produced exclusively for mounting art works. However, I think you should practice mounting the rice paper first before trying to mount the silk.

As for how to wet mount, the preparation and application of paste is a topic bigger than the space allowed here. I will have to write whole chapter if not a book. It all depends on what it is to be mounted. There is this saying “painting is accomplished by rendering different values of ink, mounting is accomplished by rendering different amounts/thickness of paste.” I will share with you when you have a particular piece to mount.

Glad to share info with you on the grumble and just call me David.

Hi Mr. John RB from San Diego:
Silk and rice paper are the carrier of Oriental art while boards and canvas are the carrier of oil painting. I have reservations on stapling while stretching silk. It is not because silk elevates above canvas in value but they are just different fabrics. You staple a 10,000 dollar canvas on bars because I guess it’s proven to be the best method so far to stretch it. You can get the embroidery piece Janet's cusotmer has for less than $300 in San Frasncisco's Chinatown. But I still wouldn't staple it. Stapling into a canvas to stretch it does not create a distortion in the fabric as noticeable as it would on silk. The canvas is covered with gesso and paint. So you’ve got something to hide the distortion. Most Oriental art leaves the background blank as space is vital. The slippery silk threads in an embroidery has little friction and if staple stretched, the weft and warp tend to be distorted easily so you will see these “U” shaped pulls in the fabric. And if you don’t pull tight enough, you are not getting the creases out. That’s why Oriental mounters paste rice paper onto the back of the silk fabrics to restrict the free movement of the threads, be it the art work itself or the bordering silk.
I have friends in San Diego. Most of them belong to the local brush painting club. They took me to the best zoo I’ve ever seen.

[JRB]

David, thank you for setting me straight on using staples on silk.

You are correct about the warp and pull of the fabric being noticeable in the finished product. I had figured that was better than showing the creases. My customers have always liked the way I have been doing them and I have never had one returned.

Once again I have learned something new on The Grumble.

I would hope you will consider writing a pamphlet or small book on the subject, I know myself and many other framers would like to purchase one from you.

I'm glad you enjoyed our zoo, next time your down this way you may also consider visiting the wild animal park, it to, is quite an experience.

Best regards,

John

[kizmet6382]

Has anyone used that iron on interfacing on a scarf that needs to be framed. that would bulk it up some...and allow it to be mounted, without stretching the actual fabric. (would have to mount on a bigger peice of interfacing, of course) also...i'm curious about what the effects of the iron on adhesive might be on the scarf, as well. i had to use interfacing on 3 linen panels...that the customer didnt want framed, only stretched, and hung. any input?
thanks....
kirsty