because the experts said so

[Kit]

I have said it before but it's worth mentioning again : I'll bet there are a lot of FRAMING trusim that are accepeted simpley because "THE EXPERTS SAID SO" even though we don't know who or when and why it is true.Can you think of any more ?LOL
BUDDY

Yes, I can: bottom weighting mats for no other reason than that that's the way it's always been done.

There are times when it's justified. If a landscape has a particularly low horizon, it looks better bottom weighted. If a framed piece is to be hung above eye level it needs more mat at the bottom to overcome the optical illusion of the lower part of the mat being smaller than the other three sides.

I will widen both the top and bottom of the mat on vertical Oriental pieces to give them a traditional look.

But to weight the bottom for no good reason always looks to me as though the art was fitted into a frame that wasn't built in the correct proportions for it.

Climbing down off of my soap box now.

Kit

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Kit:
But to weight the bottom for no good reason always looks to me as though the art was fitted into a frame that wasn't built in the correct proportions for it.
I have always felt this way. I have always wondered if I was the only framer that thought this way.

Jerry

[Ron Eggers]

The experts always said, "Oil paintings need to breathe" and we were advised to leave the backs open so that dust could accumulate between the canvas and the stretcher and art-lovers could lean the painting up against sharp various objects.

Without a durable backing or dust cover, you were free to examine the back of the canvas, listen carefully, and announce, "This painting is deceased. It has stopped breathing."

Oh, and oils like to breathe from the front, too, so we were told to NEVER, EVER glaze an oil.

[HannaFate]

I always thought that paper on the back of an oil painting with a little hole cut in it was silly.

I do like to put a solid backing, such as (gasp) cardboard, on canvases. Why? So the painting doesn't do a flop every time someone opens a door, turns on a fan, or otherwise changes the air pressure in the house.

[wshnbig]

I like to back canvases with a scrap piece of acid free mat. I cut a small triangle in it and put a piece of fine mesh screening over it attaced on the inside. I use fine needlepoint mesh for the screen. It gives them a very finished look, keeps out most dust, protects them, and is a good way to use up scrap.

[Ron Eggers]

wshnbig,

It sounds like your canvases still like to breathe.

[wshnbig]

As for "Why? Because they said so."

Why do we place the hangers 1/3 the height from the top. The lower the hangers are, the more the picture flops from the wall, so why not put them even closer to the top? It would make placement of the wall anchors easier.

[Ron Eggers]

Here's an excerpt from the FACTS standards for hanging artwork by a cord or wire:

2.1 The most common method used to hang framed art requires the attachment of a wire or cord to each of the vertical sides of the frame with screw eyes or similar fasteners. The wire or cord is then placed over a single picture hook or similar fastener attached to a wall.

2.2 This method places tremendous tension on both the wire and the wire anchor points on the frame. The tension will often break the wire, pull out fasteners, split the frame, and/or bow the sides and top of the frame. Any of the preceding can result in damage to the art within the frame and to the frame itself.

2.3 If the wire is fastened to the anchor-points so that it is near horizontal across the back of the frame, the forces on the wire and each anchor-point can be as much as 14 times the weight of the frame. (See Fig. 1)

2.4 If the angle of the wire is increased to near-vertical, the forces are reduced to slightly more than one half (1/2) the weight of the frame at each wire anchor-point. (See Fig. 1)

2.5 The use of a single hook in the wall, regardless of the frame size, rarely allows for the cord or wire to have more than a 15ƒ or 20ƒ angle up from horizontal. The forces on the wire and anchor-points on each side of the frame are more than 2 times the weight of the frame.

2.6 By using 2 hooks in the wall and adjusting the wire to near-vertical, the stresses on the wire and anchor-points are decreased to slightly more than one half (1/2) the weight of the frame at each wire anchor point. (See Fig. 1)

2.8 Forces directed near-vertical on the wire anchor-points minimize side forces on the frame, thereby reducing forces on the artwork/glazing package.

3.0 Calculation Formula

3.1 The formula for calculating the stress placed on a hanging system is:
http://www.artfacts.org/standards/images/Formula.jpg

The angle is measured in degrees by imagining a horizontal line between the two anchor-points and a vertical line that bisects the horizontal line and intersects the line of the wire/cord as well.( See Fig.1)

4.0 Procedure

4.1 Fig. 1 shows a typical rear view of a frame with the anchor-points on the vertical sides of the frame approx. 1/3 down from the top of the frame. The 15ƒ wire angle is common practice, although many framers attach the wire more tightly.

4.2 The laws of physics show that for any 10 lb. frame with the wire attached 15ƒ up from the horizontal, the resulting force pulling on the wire from each anchor-point is 19 lbs. The force increases as the angle decreases and decreases as the angle increases.

4.3 A common problem (in addition to stripped-out screw eyes, split moulding, and broken wire) resulting from a wire positioned too near to the horizontal is the top of the frame bending upward as a result of the wire forces. The drawing in Fig. 2 is slightly exaggerated to illustrate the problem. With 19 lbs. pulling toward top-center, each side of the frame is pulled inward until stopped by the artwork/glazing package. Each side of the frame will move one half (1/2) of the frame allowance.

The top of the frame will usually bow upward as the sides are drawn together and bent inward.

4.4 A typical frame allowance is 1/8" and a typical rabbet width on a modern moulding is 3/16"ñ1/4"; an un-bowed frame top is engaged a scant 1/16"ñ1/8" with the top edge of the glazing. (See Fig 3) Gravity ensures the artwork/glazing package is resting on the bottom frame leg. Bowing of the top frame leg can expose the top edge of the glazing. In metal frames, exposing the top edge of the glass combined with pressure from spring clips can break the glass.

[Bill Henry-]

…bottom weighting mats for no other reason than that that's the way it's always been done. I kinda like the bottom weighing of mats. To my eye, adding 18-20% to the bottom keeps the mat from looking top heavy and 18-20% is subtle enough to be hardly noticible.

IMHO, I suspect many framer's like even mat borders mats 'cause they don't want to have to change the guide bar and the stops.

[Sharonx]

When I first started I had a competitor who told people I was wrong when I put glass on counted cross stitch. Their rule was NEVER put glass on cross stitch. I check with Leisure Arts and several framing sources and found that that is not the case. Of course, I always use a dbl mat or spacers so the glass does not lay on the fabric. It makes sense to me that glass keeps the fabric and mat clean.

[Jack Cee]

Sometimes the experts are right; sometimes there are exceptions to their suggestions. If you do not agree with the "Olde Tried and True Traditions" do it your way and assess the results.
I have had engineers bring back work that has been bottom weighted and tell me that the bottom is wider than the sides and that they should all be the same width. I showed him pictures that had not been weighted and that the bottom appeared to be narrower than the sides; he went away satisfied with the suggestion that he put away his tape measure when looking at art. He is still a good customer. I have another customer that wants her hangers 3" from the top of the picture and bow string tight; won't even consider them another way; Oh Well!, can't please everyone and she is paying the bill. I have finally convinced some artists that glazing an oil is not evil and keeps the oil a bit cleaner. I have another customer that insists on backing her work with cardboard; she insists so I remove the cardboard and back it with museum board and then replace the cardboard. Love them even though they are wrong.

Jack Cee

[Framing Goddess]

I like bottom weighting in general, but especially on vertical images. I like the way that bottom-weighting maintains that "long and lean" look. I think that bottom-weighting helps to keep the proportions of the framed piece closer to those of the image.
I am not so thrilled about bottom-weighting on horizontals, especially exaggerated horizontals. I don't like the way it "squares up" the piece. I have even weighted the sides of a really wide and squat pieces.
Also, the wider the mat, the more likely I am to weight the bottom. When I use a narrower mat, that is, a "mat-as-a-liner" I tend to keep it even all around as a liner would be.

I would like to also question the experts' notion in matting that "wider is always better." I sometimes like the look that I mentioned above, the mat-as-a-liner, that looks good with a 1.0-1.5" mat (especially 8 ply) with a chunky frame. This works well, for instance, on a black and white photo portrait that is to be stood on a table top.
fwiw...


edie

[MerpsMom]

Weird coincidence, Edie. I have in a very wide photo whose workup comes out to 40 x 19. I really do like bottom-weighting on a number of things but was puzzled about its appearance on a wide horizontal. In the end, I dropped the bottom just a little bit so I could please my conflicted self. I have a client who insists on bottom-weighting and narrow mats. She's one of my best designer clients, and I only disagreed with her once! smile.gif As for the rest of this discussion, you can only decide to bend the rules if you know them.

[Jim Miller]

When it comes to mat widths, there is no absolute right or wrong. All those appearance things are matters of opinion -- although some opinions are better than others.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jack Cee:
Sometimes the experts are right; sometimes there are exceptions to their suggestions. If you do not agree with the "Olde Tried and True Traditions" do it your way and assess the results.

Technical matters should be supported by reasoning. If you don't understand why something is done a certain way, ASK QUESTIONS and find out WHY "the experts" say to do it that way.

Any technique can be misapplied, which is why it's so important to understand the reasoning that supports it and qualifies its use.

I have another customer that wants her hangers 3" from the top of the picture and bow string tight; won't even consider them another way; Oh Well!, can't please everyone...

I have another customer that insists on backing her work with cardboard; she insists so I remove the cardboard and back it with museum board and then replace the cardboard.

In cases like these, try giving the clients reasoning to support the proper methods. If they understand why a tight wire is a problem, or why cardboard backing is a problem, then they will stop insisting on the ridiculous.

It's not their fault -- they just don't understand...yet. And when we educate our clients, they respect us for our knowledge and willingness to help them.

We're more than just another pretty mat, you know.

[BUDDY]

Boy ! You peopel know how to make a guy happy. I never thought anything I 'd say would start a ball rolling.
But as usual we can count on Jim to put things in the right order. He hit it right on the head when he said,"If you don't understand why something is done a certain way, ASK QUESTIONS and find out WHY "the experts" say to do it that way. "
Most Rules do in deed have a reson for them .But blindly accepting them as mindless axioms is worthless.That's why we should go to all the classes we can and why I check the contents of all the post here and on HH regaurdless of their author.The more we hear the better our chances of understanding WHY.
BUDDY

[wshnbig]

4.2 The laws of physics show that for any 10 lb. frame with the wire attached 15ƒ up from the horizontal, the resulting force pulling on the wire from each anchor-point is 19 lbs. The force increases as the angle decreases and decreases as the angle increases.

So perhaps a more pertinent question for this thread would be why do we use wire at all? If the 10lb frame were hung directly from the vertical legs, the angle would effectively be 90 deg., resulting in 5 lbs force per side, the minimum for a 10 lb frame

[wshnbig]

How to properly back an oil on canvas:
Paintings on canvas are vulnerable to physical assault from the back. In addition, during transport the surface of the canvas will vibrate and begin to set up a harmonic which can be damaging to the paint film.
Application of a stiff, puncture resistant backing material such as Corex or Coroplast will ELIMINATE harmonics (the same principle as trapping that small layer of air in double wall window panes for insulation} AND protect the painting from physical damage. A less expensive and more commonly available material is foam board, being mindful of its negative qualities.
The verdict on sealing vs. circulation is mixed. Generally if the painting is to be kept in a totally climate controlled environment sealing is recommended, but where there is adequate humidity to cause strange fungal growths in closed spaces, small holes to allow circulation may provide a better long term result.

Notes from "Archival Matting and Framing", Hugh Phipps, National Gallery, Washington, DC

[Rebecca]

A woman called the other day - she had followed the "expert" advice of some guy who has a show or spot on the home and garden channel. He advised cleaning old prints with bread dough.

She now has bread dough stuck all over her print. :eek:

She has not called back, so I think I'm safe!

Rebecca

[BUDDY]

Rebecca ,I 'm not on any show and I don't give this advise ,but I think I rember a slightly different version. If memory serves me ,one of the OLD Framing Books suggest useing Stale bread to clean a painted canvas but I don't remember DOUGH .Seems it would have a lot of oil in it not to mention it is wet and sticky.
But I 've never tried either nor suggested them.But I guess it's like the old thing about a joke and a string of people by the time it gets to the last person it isn't even recognizeable. But the concept would be.
BUDDY

[Rebecca]

Buddy - But I was sure that was you and Marie I saw on TV the other day :D

Yes, there are a lot of odd suggestions in the old "do it youself" books. I'm now working with a conservator from Brazil, and she says that one of the old tricks there was to clean oil paintings with a cut onion. She has worked on paintings with bits of onion stuck in the cracks and icky dried onion juice all over it.

Rebecca

[El Framo]

I once saw an episode of Oprah where an "expert" in home decor suggested using hot glue and cheap readymade frames w/mats (nonarchival of course) to mount family heirlooms for display. Their is certainly no shortage of "expert" advice from (supposedly) reputable people to your next door neighbor. The problem is, the rank and file lack the ability/desire to seek the truth for themselves.

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
Oh, and oils like to breathe from the front, too, so we were told to NEVER, EVER glaze an oil. I have always heard that mat board and liners where used so that they could add glazing over the oils to "protect" the paintings for public viewing. It was years later that someone thought these "spacer devices" should come in different colors and materials.

Jerry

[Ron Eggers]

Here's one to chew on a little. This came up on HH not long ago and was kinda left hanging. Or, at least, it left ME hanging.

The experts always said to use only stainless steel pins to pin needlework.

Has anyone ever run any tests or nickel-plated brass or even nickel-plated steel pins to see how easily they rust? Stainless steel pins are hard to come by in some markets. MarkG1 sent me a lifetime supply from Singer in Chicago, but what if I get a 1980s-ish glut of Precious Moments cross-stitch items in and I run out of pins?

Kit has inspired me to run my own unscientific tests on different kinds of pins. The one thing I know from experience is that stainless is not.

[Framerguy]

Ron,

Ok, I will crawl out on the limb and give this a try. It IS a trick question, isn't it?? I mean, brass pins? They aren't gonna rust no way! Nickel plated or otherwise.

The question I see is where does one buy nickel plated brass straight pins??

Nickel plating is a very inexpensive method used to weatherproof ferrous metal and is used on most hardware, nuts, bolts, screws, washers, etc. The problem comes in when that hardware is used for anything. The wrench, screwdriver, socket, or whatever tool is used to install the hardware usually breaks the surface of the nickel plating thus allowing the mild steel beneath to oxidize.

Point is that nickel plated straight pins may just be protected enough to do the trick for pinning fabric to a board without rusting. After all, we don't use any tools to install them and, as long as the nickel coating is intact, I can believe that they may not rust under normal environmental conditions as are found in most homes.

Or, you may find that they will turn into a little pile of pure rust in weeks.

Framerguy

[MerpsMom]

Do we get our choice? (Seriously, I'd really like to know the answer to all of the above stuff. We like pins sometimes.)

[EllenAtHowards]

I get our nickel-plated brass pins from a secret source. [shhhh... Joanne's Fabrics]... I can't reveal where. [sworn to secrecy]

Seriously, they are hanging right there with the regular silk pins. The way you tell which ones they are is that they are twice as expensive for half as many pins. The brand is Dritz, and when you turn over the package, it says 'brass' in a couple of languages (don't you love the government's sneaky way of teaching us foreign languages?)at the upper left part of the package.... hope this helps.

[HannaFate]

I've been using Dritz pins for years, without problems. I think they are just as "archival" as sewing the piece on the back. You can get an ornery bit of needlework a lot straighter, too.

I also advise customers to put glass over their needlework (gasp! won't it rot?) With some sort of spacer, of course. I've seen too many dusty, pet-hairy, flyspecked pieces of old needlework. I have never seen any mildewed pieces.

[Framerguy]

Who would frame needlework without glass???

With all the junk that floats around that little enclosed box we all call home, it would be a really thoughtless thing to do to your customers!

Dritz pins? I haven't had the pleasure of using them yet. I always opt for Coates & Clark stainless dressmakers pins. they are fairly easy to find and I will keep my eye open for Dritz the next time I am browsing a fabric store.

Hanna, are you inferring that the advice from my Great Uncle Ernie is bogus??? Heck, I've been playing the slots and buying lottery tickets for years on his sage leadings! And Madam Cleona can make almost instant contact with him after all these meetings!

Boy, am I chapped!!

Framerguy

[HannaFate]

Just FYI, when a customer insists on no glass on their fabric art, I ask them if I can at least Scotchguard it for them.

[Ron Eggers]

How do the rest of you feel about Scotchgard?

One of the experts told me a long time ago not to spray anything on anything.

I have about fifty different aerosol cans in the shop, so I guess I haven't always heeded that advice, but I don't think I'd spray a piece of needlework.

[Rebecca]

Way back in the early 80's, a conservation student in Cooperstown did her science project on Scotchguard. An artificial aging thing. Her results showed that it didn't yellow over time.

However, (there's always a however isn't there!), artificial aging isn't natural aging, formulations can (and do) change without notification, and the conservation police would arrest you, because it's adding a foreign object to the original.

Now artist-applied Scotchguard could be considered along the lines of artist applied fixatives on pastels and charcoals. That would be ok, if they are aware of pro's and con's.

I use lots of Scotchguard on my furnishings and raingear. But never on the art or artifacts.

Rebecca

[BUDDY]

Ok Since I started all this ,I'll try to play devil's advocate a little bit. First if the pins are completely all brass do they need any coating and secondly if Ellen says they're OK they're OK.However the Objection to anything but stainless or coated pins I think is caused by the fact that (Believe it or not) the heads of some pins are solidered on and the solider is sometimes ferrous metal and as such will rust at that point.
Next in defferance to Hanna you may be better off with just no glazing then Scotch Gaurding it. Scotch Gaurd (if I'm not mistaken) has some solvent properties just as Wool-lite(Contary to popular belief).Not to mention the fact that Sctoch Gaurd will probably impregnate the fabric and may be very hard to get out.
Oh and by the Way I was taught by a well known Needle work EXPERT (Marion Scholar a holder of a Degree in Needle Arts from the Royal Academy of England) that with all the pollutants in todays atmosphere Glazing is almost a MUST not an option when framing Needle Art.
BUDDY

[EllenAtHowards]

Back in the Dark Ages, when I was studying Textiles in college (one of my many college majors) Scotchguard was in its infancy. The problem with it then, and logic tells me that it would still be a problem now, is that it dissipates with age. So what is protected now wouldn't be protected later. But even if this weren't true (remember, my info is veeerrrryyyy old) I wouldn't spray needlework with anything. I have a couple of customers who still frame without glass, and that is the way I do it for them. But they gotta beg me... Surely someone has done a dissertation on this... Rebecca?

[preservator]

Any sprayed coating can not cover the surface of
each fiber, which means that atmospheric pollution
will be able to attack the uncoated fibers. Glazing affords not only protection from pollution, but it also allows for the inclusion
of UV absorbers, a benefit to fibers.

Hugh

[Ron Eggers]

I hope Hanna doesn't think she's being picked on here. I think she made it clear that she STRONGLY recommends glazing on needlework.

I, on the other hand, have framed several thousand cross-stitch, needlepoint and crewel pieces without glazing - a practice I will be re-evaluating because of what I've read here.

BTW, some expert told me you shouldn't ever use glazing on needlepoint, even with spacers, because of "oils" in the wool yarn. Would someone please buy me a clue about this?

Edit: Another related mantra I've heard and have often repeated: Paper needs glazing, fabrics do not.

Life was simpler when I knew everything. :confused:

[ 08-07-2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]

[Kit]

Ron, I expect that by the time needlepoint yarn had been processed and dyed, the lanolin is pretty much gone. BUT, wool does accept moisture out of the air - a good reason to glaze it with spacers.

I bought some unprocessed yarn in Scotland and knit myself a water-proof sweater. Every time I wore it out in the rain, I smelled like a wet sheep.

Kit

[preservator]

This thread is well named. Every opinion should
be supported with arguments and examples, which
can be evaluated by the listener. Slogans and
mantras may amuse, but only careful observations
of results or scientific reasoning are worth
our attention.
When glass was not spaced away from the textile
and frames could absorb dampness from the walls
on which they were hung, glazing a textile might
result in its greater humidification. Today's
better framing practices allow for sequestration
of the textile from all sorts of harmful things,
such as oxidizing gases, cooking volitiles, insects, UV, and excess humidity.

Hugh

[Ron Eggers]

Every time I wore it out in the rain, I smelled like a wet sheep.
But I'll bet ewe were lovely in it.

Hardly a week goes by without some personal framing rule getting shattered on The Grumble. I never heard of glazing oil paintings - except in museum settings - until I got here, and now I have to consider glazing needlepoint.

Good thing I'm adaptable.

[BUDDY]

Hugh or Rebecca would either of you care to give an educated opinion about the ability of Brass pins to oxidize in a frame? I realize that we all are worried about RUST ( ferrous oxide ?) but don't other metals oxidize (even brass,that greenish stuff) and as such couldn't they also transfer stains to textiles that they are used in?Hence the assumption that pins need to be COATED with something the likes of Nickle (But then does nickle oxidise ?)
I wasn't aware of the poor coating problems of the spraying aplication but will either of you also comment on the solvent properties of Scotch Gaurd and Woolite.We here were warned about both but especially about Wool-lite and only told to use Orvis when cleaning Color-fast cross stitch. However the fear of dyes migrateing (Running, despite DMC's assurances) has caused us to discontinue the service and have clients do there own.
BUDDY

[Rebecca]

Hugh explained the glazing fabric concept very well. Textile conservation is a relatively new kid on the block compared to paintings or paper. Lots of ideas that people had back then about "breathing", air circulation etc. in the early days - 1960's - were printed in popular books on needlework.

These early ideas were repeated by other authors, until they became "engraved in stone" laws. But as Hugh says, better framing methods and closer examinations of what actually happens in a framing system over time have disproven the "need to breath" school of thought.

As far as pins go, I think it's best to stick with stainless steel or, if using insect pins, the black lacquer. And with the lacquered ones you have to be careful of scratching the finish.

Brass contains copper, so it does does get that green corrosion/patina on it. As with the black lacquer pins, anything with a coating on it can get scratched, exposing the more reactive base metal. Lots of old garment closures, like hook and eyes can be seen to have stained fabric, especially in damp conditions.

Buddy brought up an interesting point about the heads of pins being soldered or something to the shaft. I am no expert on pins at all, but did notice that my supposedly stainless steel insect pins did rust when I accidently left them in a sinkside spill of water for - days? weeks? - a long time anyway. I was shocked to see the rust, but in a rush, so didn't investigate closely - just chucked them. Maybe the joining material was at fault.

About the Woolite - CCI did an analysis of Woolite, and to the best of my recollection it was chemically fine to use, but had fluorescent whiteners and brightners, which one wouldn't want to add to a historic/artictic textile. I can double check on that.

The reason WA Paste/Orvus is used by textile conservators is that is pH neutral. Normal detergents and all soaps have a high pH which will damage protein fibers like wool, silk or nylon.

Rebecca

[ 08-07-2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Rebecca ]

[PurplePerson]

Concerning stainless steel pins. By the way, we use them.

When I leave my stainless steel silverware (that should be stainless steel ware) in the sink for 6 months at a time, there is a rust spot under them. They are supposed to be solid stainless steel. They should just lay there and nothing happen.

I never understood that. :confused:

[Peter Bowe]

Regarding Scotchguard:
The original formula was taken off the market by 3M in 2000 because of some fairly unpleasant long term toxicity issues. The newly re-introduced Scotchguard is a completely different animal chemically speaking.

Peter Bowe
Saline Picture Frame Co.

[BUDDY]

Sue Nolan ;this is a bit off the topic ( But not entirely).There is definetly Grades to STAINLESS.In fact when I used to be a tropical fish enthusist, ages ago, when tanks where lined with stainless frames, we were taught to check the frames with a Magnet . If the magnet stuck the stainless contained TOO much base metal and would likely rust. I guess the same is true of anything made of stainless ,but I don't know what % is safe .
Peter Bowe : what you are quoteing may be the problem of which I was warned. So I guess it proves that we need to keep up to date even on the correct information ,lest it be corrected and we not be aware of the changes.Thanks for the heads up I'll need to check the labels once again.
BUDDY

[ 08-08-2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]

[PurplePerson]

My stainless steel fork held the magnet. It will be enlightening to check out the pins when I get to work.

[PurplePerson]

No, I will not run around testing everything with a magnet.

<center/> http://thegrumble.com/ubb/icons/icon43.gif<center/>

[HannaFate]

We keep a magnet on a stick in the shop, to pick up stuff when I spill a box of pins. Or a box of screw eyes, or nails, or staples....

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by Rebecca:
As far as pins go, I think it's best to stick with stainless steel...Brass contains copper, so it does does get that green corrosion/patina on it...Buddy brought up an interesting point about the heads of pins being soldered or something to the shaft...my supposedly stainless steel insect pins did rust...Years ago a pin supplier told me that most stainless steel pins weren't all stainless steel. I don't know whether that advice was based on high ferrous content, or solder on the head, or some other reason. Anyway, her advice was to use nickel-plated brass for textile stretching.

I've been using nickel-plated brass pins for a long time. So long as the nickel plating is intact, the brass would have no exposure, and would not be a problem, right?

What about the nickel plating? Any problems there?

Vivain Kistler today posted a thread on HH saying that she consulted two pin manufacturers about the metal issues. They both recommended stainless steel because, she said, ordinary steel rusts and brass oxidizes. However, there was no mention of nickel-plated brass.

Surely stainless steel would be suitable -- unless it has solder at the head -- but I'm wondering if any pin manufacturer would recommend using a less-expensive pin for any purpose.

[Rebecca]

Well this all got me interested in stainless steel, and I wish I had the time to do more research but this is what I turned up after a quick search:

Stainless steel is an iron alloy, which contains various quantities of Chrome, Nickel, and, in special cases molybolunum (can this be right?) and copper.

The alloy material forms an oxide coating on the stainless steel's surface, making it rust resistant (not proof).

These oxides can be removed by scouring (especially with steel wool) or by heating (here is the welding connection) or by acids or bleaches. Then rust can set in.

Some ss alloys are more rust resistant than others. Austenitic ss has 18 - 30% Chrome and 6-20% nickel. It's used for sinks, appliances etc.

Higher grades have more significan additions of Chrome, nickel, molybolenum or copper, and have extra corrosion resistance.

Looks like my stainless steel insect pins were the lower grade, so I'll probably stick with the lacquer coated ones.

I didn't find out anything about nickel plated brass, except for one reference in conservation treatment report of some hardware on an old carriage. Here the underlying brass had corroded, marring the nickel but this is not directly applicable to Jim's question as I'm assuming his pins receive gentler treatment than carriage hardware!

Rebecca

[Susan May]

So, I guess I am supposed to lace all my stitcheries from now on... right? :eek: :rolleyes:

Actually, I think we need to do a little research to find out what we REALLY need, and have a pin company specially manufacture them for the framing industry. (Short, thin, T-pins would be nice.)

[Ron Eggers]

Originally posted by Susan May:
So, I guess I am supposed to lace all my stitcheries from now on... right? That seems to be the conclusion on a couple of recent HH posts.

Not terribly long ago I was using a stapler, so I don't know if I'm ready for any more BIG CHANGES just yet.

[PurplePerson]

I used a stapler until about 6 months ago, too. When I hurt my back (not using the stapler), the doctor said I could not use it anymore and I got to switch to pins. I have laced a few needleworks in the past, too, but am not used to it.

Osgood's instructions were a wonderful help.

[ 08-13-2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: SusanNolan ]