Framers Select?

[Jean McLean]

Would someone please explain what Framers Select is all about for those of us who don't know and too embarrased to ask? Is this a B2B thing? Do they send us business? What does one get for $125 per month?

[Charles Lowry]

Whew! I'm glad you asked, Jean. I want to know too. I'm all ears...'specially since I found out I'm colorblind...

[framechick]

Here's my understanding of some of it.
There is a website http://www.framerselect.com/ Where consumers can find out about framing and see a list of member shops.

An area of the site is for members only

Ads in national magazines would include your shop name and address, like Kohler ads that say "Kohler products available though these fine distributors" and have 12 or 15 addresses at the bottom.

Other benefits meentioned in the literature are a newsletter "focused on improving operations", new product sourcing, and network referrals.

One thing I'd like to add Jay Goltz said at a talk I went to where he was introducing the idea. He believes that the organization will benefit all of its members, but it is not a co-op or club. It is a for profit business that he is starting.

Probably best to get the straight scoop from them directly at the website or at 800-444-8387

[mary ann lovely]

While FramerSelect.com in theory sounds like a good idea I beleive there are some real flaws. If you do the math and figure out how much money it is going to take to keep up the promises of national advertising (about $2,500 per ad), a website, a referal network (See ad Decor March 01)and whatever else they are planning it is difficult to imagine how they can pull it off and stay true to their members.
This is a big venture and even if they get 500 of us to sign up at $120 per month the ad campaign has got to be a couple of hundred thousand to 1/2 million per year not to mention all the other costs involved in running a huge business. I don't know guys, can you say-FYA.com.
It's heart-warming to think that a mogul like Mr. Goltz would be interested in helping the little guy out but anyone who has ever heard him speak knows what the bottom line is.
I'd hate to think that I'm buying into something that promises to help grow my business only to find out that I'm actually growing somebody elses!
Plus, I question the whole "Select" part of the scheme. Are they going to send a representative to check on every framer they sign up? I don't want to be involved with some of the framers around my area who think they are good but actually stink.
I've been hearing rumblings about the potential of FramerSelect.com for a while now and I've been sitting on the sidelines watching and waiting and have yet to see results. I can't find framers on the site from Boston-proper who are becoming members and most states don't have any members either.
My feeling is that we as framers have the PPFA (they give referrals) and even though they are sometimes sub-standard they do give us some real street cred. Of course Larson Juhl has a referral network (and it's free as long as you are a customer)on their site. We all have seen their ads everywhere. I think I've learned my lesson watching FYA.com. The internet can be a great tool but our business is so different. So tactile, so relationship/trust based.
Generic branding is not the name of the game. Framers are independent by nature. We don't need big business to free us, we are as free as it gets. I don't answer to anyone and I like it like that.
Putting faith and money into a program like this is risky. Not only are you wasting $1400 but you are putting your good name on the line. It only takes a few bad apples in this scenario... and the damage inflicted from those bad apples could be irrepreable.
I know the best customers will seek out a local framer through the yellow pages or word of mouth. I get them in my store every week.
In my neck of the woods I've found it to be very effective to support local newspapers and magazines like Boston Magazine. There is a certain personal touch and real support from the home town guys.
I've got a great business here in Boston and I know what my potential growth is, I've grown steadily for 8 years straight. Even in a big, wealthy city like this I find it difficult to believe that I could grow to 80 employees or make millions of dollars just because my shop is listed on a website, especially if I'm lumped together with my competition.
With my current ad schedule I'm able to really track the effectiveness of my advertising (all the while keeping track of my competition) and I'm in charge of what goes into my ads. Also, some months I advertise, some I don't. It's up to me.
The big question is can custom picture framing capture the imagination of the general public (most of whom, as we know have never done any framing)and is FramerSelect.com going to be the conduit? The verdict is still out but my gut feeling is: No. Framing has always had the potential to really catch on nationally but just hasn't because a.) it is a luxury item and b.) people are not educated in the ways of art and framing and generally can't be bothered to be.
Our customers are special and are going to seek out framing with or without the rest of country. It takes effort to get into framing from a customers stand point, that is, they gotta want it. I prefer to act locally and do my part to propel framing to a bigger stage by doing the best possible framing and giving the best possible service.
The concept behind FramerSelect.com is a good idea for a new product, maybe.
I don't need to be legitimized. Anyone who comes into my shop gets my or my staffs attention and is treated individually and with care.
Anyway, good luck to those of you who have been bold enough to take the leap. I will certainly be keeping my eyes peeled to see any further developments. M.A.Lovely.

[Marc Lzier]

M. Lovely (great name I might add),

Reaching back to when I was a Y-camper, then CIT, Counselor, Summer Camp Director, Program Director and a Site Director for Summer Day, and After-school (as well as 66 seat bus driver) the Rule #4 of the House Rules still applies

You have the option to pass.

[This message has been edited by Marc Lzier (edited March 19, 2001).]

[mary ann lovely]

Mr. Lzier,
Huh?
Let's just hope that the message in FramerSelect's ad campaign is easier to decipher then yours was.
And by the way I thought this was a forum to express opinions and relay information.
Your obvious attempt to be witty only further confirms my suspicions that these waters are to be tested very carefully. Beware! Anyone with a thought of their own may be made fun of by the moderator. M.A. Lovely

[Marc Lzier]

Lovely,
I am sorry you are looking for a fight. You are doing a good job at it, but you are alone. That was not my intent, nor is it now.
I am sorry you misunderstood my post. I thought it more polite that simply posting "You have the option to pass." I thought that rules that help children play well together might help here. Apparently I am, or was wrong. I am sure you will let us all know if you feel otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally said by Lovely:"And by the way I thought this was a forum to express opinions and relay information."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As best I can recollect, as well as re-read, I said nothing to disparage your eloquent post, nor did I do anything but relay information of my own. But as I said before: If you feel otherwise, I am sure you will let us all know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally said by Lovely:"Your obvious attempt to be witty . . "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so obvious at all. In fact, it was an obvious attempt to state where the rule came from, and where it was used. Nothing more, nothing less. It is clear that this program will not be for everyframer, as nothing is.
Again: You have the option to pass.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally said by Lovely:"only further confirms my suspicions that these waters are to be tested very carefully."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it as a very good and well spoken first post. And have done nothing to "dis" you or your writings. I would also ask any other Grumblers out there in GrumbleLand to post if they feel there was anything surreptitious to my post.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally said by Lovely:"may be made fun of by the moderator. "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be "a" moderator, and not "the" moderator. And just to be clear,I was not making fun of you in any way, shape or form. I am sorry you see it that way. For the record the moderator is "framer."

Just to fill out the playground rules: Number one is No Put Downs, and Number five is Expect Unfinished Business.

I hope I followed #1. I hope you do too. As for any further reply to you on my part, I think # 5 will be the order of the day.

Take Care,
marc

[rosetl]

Just thought you'd like to know that your post was appreciated. It showed a lot of heart and I enjoy reading various opinions and as a veteran frame shop owner, I fully understand your view.

IMHO Marc's wit is often quite refreshing and his input is also frequently valued by some of us. Sorry you two started off on the wrong foot.

As a member of several forums I've noticed that sometimes typing words just doesn't always portray the true spirit of the typer and odd grumblings appear. I suggest re-reading his posts with a friendlier view in mind and they may appear quite differently.

As to Framer's Select -- this is a great place to banter it all about -- and pass on opinions -- without huge amounts of one sided views taking over. This is "The Grumble" afterall -- we can grumble and we can praise! I believe some of the questions you raised were very recently answered on another thread with similar name that Marc started.

[Bob Carter]

Marc is a long time valuable member of this forum.His advice is wise and pretty clear. If it ain't for you, no problem. That's your opinion. But I get the impression that maybe there is more to it. Just because Jay is doing this concept, and because Jay is very successful (you know, 80 employees and millions in sales) doesn't make the concept bad. It seems that sometimes the bigger the player, the juicier the target? I tried FYA and it didn't work for us, but I'll promise one thing: Because Jay is involved I'm going to give it a serious look. If it's not for us, no problem. But not because Jay's successful. And I'm sure Jay will feel the same way, if we don't participate. Try measuring the concept on it's merit-not because Jay and his operation is the biggest in this trade. Try and respect his abilities. There's only one way his operation got to the size it is. It's because he had the vision and ability to do it, and that should be admired. We could all learn something from his bottom line mentality that some don't like. But I'll guarantee that making a lot of money doesn't make you any less competent than making very little money guarantees skill.

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Because Jay is involved I'm going to give it a serious look. If it's not for us, no problem. But not because Jay's successful. And I'm sure Jay will feel the same way, if we don't participate. Try measuring the concept on it's merit-not because Jay and his operation is the biggest in this trade.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bob Carter,

Take a serious look or sign up? Are you going to commit before the fact.......come on guys......as much as I have my doubts about this program, I believe in giving it a try.

Yes, the best thing about this program is that a successful business person like Jay Goltz is behind it. And yet I recognize that the weakest element about this concept is that Jay is behind it........will he get burned out before fruitation of the idea?

My shop HAS signed up, because I believe that that the basic concept is sound, and that to make it work, it needs "backers".

Mary Ann Lovely,

You question the "Whole Select Part of the Scheme"........and yet the strength of the idea is that it is indeed open to anyone who meets a few minimum framing critearia.....the Select part of FYA.com was the Zip Code parameters.........The consummer didn't have a chance to even test this criteria.....but face it....they would have easily figured out that one framer per zip code was not a real criteria?

To be honest, you speak with some experience, but fail to reveal your true identity? (a profile would be nice) - I'm alway suspicious of opinons from such sources.......who are you?

We've had several discussions on this subject, but I'll let you know that like Bob Carter, I was a FYA.com member and will let my supscription end in April (like many others).......but at the same time, I've already signed up to "Framer's Select", because I believe in it's potential.

Our industry needs the bit of advertising that Larson-Juhl and The Art & Framing Council provides................................
...............another effort is worth my participation.

John
-------------------------
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
Appleton, Wisconsin
The Frame Workshop (http://www.theframeworkshop.com)
-------------------------

[This message has been edited by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF (edited March 20, 2001).]

[Rick]

I went by the site and I liked what I saw. I has a nice layout and pretty quick download time. The trick is getting people to go there. It is designed as a stand alone site and has it's links on a seperate link page. This site will work if they just ad some link banners to the front page in trade for a Framerselcet banner on other pages. (No site is an island.) Also sponorship is the key to paying for sites. Larson-Juhl, Nielson Bainbridge, Tru-Vue, Image Perfect, and the likes might be willing to put up some money to have a nice link banner on the front page as well.
The web is the most powerful tool of communication in the world and it will soon kill the phone book. I'm sure the trees can't wait.
The internet is the wave of the future and it's just a matter of time before we all have to pop up on our boards and drop in a mondo huge wave catch some tube action.
Sorry, didn't mean to lose you.
Anyway maybe we should be posting tips on how to make the site better rather destroying it before it is even born.
"Power to the People my framing bother and sisters."

[Bob Carter]

John-Help me here. Did we agree on something or did I miss that?

[mary ann lovely]

Grumblers,
I've updated my profile. Feel free to e-mail me anytime. As you can tell I love a great debate. Although I may have been too sensitive (after all it was my first time). I think we all have good points to make. I'm in a wait and see pattern right now personally. I don't see any reason to rush in to another idea that has yet to prove itself. I was compelled to express myself on the topic because I've been hearing and reading so much about it and now that the time has come to see what it is all about I was disappointed and quite frankly concerned. I've read posts from John, Marc and Jim in the past, you guys know your audience. I was compelled to offer my opinion. I will continue to watch from the sidelines and sound off when necessary. Best of luck. M.A. Lovely

[JRB]

I totally agree with Mary Ann, I also will wait and see.
I also want to welcome her to the Grumble, I think she is going to be a great addition to this club.
I think she was wrong for jumping on Mark like that and she should Fed X him a box of Crispy Creams to make amends.
John

[Audrey]

John!

It's Krispy Kreems, not Webster-happy Crispy Creams. THE DOUGHNUTS DON'T TASTE AS GOOD IF THEY'RE NOT MISPELLED. And anyone who'd like to Fed-X ME a box would get free framing for a year.

http://www.thegrumble.com/framer/ubbs/biggrin.gif

P.S. Welcome to the forum, Ms. Lovely. We all welcome debate.... http://www.thegrumble.com/framer/ubbs/smile.gif

------------------
I don't care what color your sofa is.

[JRB]

Krispy Kreems???? who would have guessed. I never heard of them in my life until I saw it on Framedex. I understand San Diego now has one or two opened up in the last few months.

Audrey, I want you to know I feel just awful for getting the spelling wrong, no really.

Just for busting me like that, I think you should have to FedX a box to Mark as well.

John

[R Markoff]

Any truth to the rumor that MA Lovely is really a pseudonym for Al Marco?

[TADPORTER]

OK, being that Im in Memphis (Federal Express world HQ), I have to make my correction contribution... its Fed Ex.
http://www.thegrumble.com/framer/ubbs/tongue.gif

---Mike

[framechick]

actually . . . I believe it's Krispy Kreme

and curse you all because now I have to take a very long train ride on a very yucky night if I'm going to satisfy this craving.

[Charles Lowry]

Oh, poor, pitiful me. For years, I thought the only donuts made were KK's. We always had 'em right in Raleigh, about 20 mins away. A great 'date' when I was in high school was to go sit at the KK and wait for a fresh batch to come out. Then, in the '60's, Dunkin' Donuts came to Raleigh. The only folks that liked them were cops...

I could write a story about KK's, in fact I used to, but here's the HOT scoop: Wait until they have a fresh batch cooked, rush in and buy the 'holes'. IMHO, the holes are better than the donuts. Perhaps a donut thread for the sugar junkies like me...

[Bob Carter]

Here's my story of Krispy Kreme's-A story of "Boy, are we in the wrong business". Upon return from Atlanta a few years back, where we tasted KK's for the first time, we inquired about franchise info for AZ. We didn't have them here yet, and my partner and I were thinking birdsnest on the ground. We called Corporate and were ploitely told that a master franchise had been sold for AZ, but maybe we could spin one off. But the minimum liquid assets required for a franchise was "only" $2million, liquid. Can you imagine the kind of bucks these owners are making, if that's the entrance level? And to think that they get away selling 10 donuts for the price of 12. At least, that's how many are in the box when it gets to my house.

[Susan May]

Just think, all those donuts used to come to our house by way of the Boy Scouts of America. (My father was the leader, so guess whose car was often filled with Krispy Kreme's? It took weeks to get the smell out of the car, then it was Girl Scout cookie time!)

We have two Krispy Kreme locations near us, but i happen to live about three blocks from a Dunkin Donut. http://www.thegrumble.com/framer/ubbs/frown.gif I don't know which is more tempting... the doughnuts, or the cofee.

Good O'l Sue

[MerpsMom]

Around here, there's a local named Lamar's which contends it's much, much better than either of the other two. People are waiting at the front door at some un-Godly hour to "get 'em hot." We have both Dunkin and KK, the latter my spouse's downfall; as for me, they all taste like yeasted sugar cotton candy. (Okay, now, I'm no nutrition snob: Gates' bbq's a personal sin; or you could bribe me with a Reuben or jalapeno chili. Does food preference give insight into personality?)

We all do digress, don't we? http://www.thegrumble.com/framer/ubbs/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by MerpsMom (edited March 22, 2001).]

[Jim Miller]

OK, you know how I shy from disagreement, and never post off-topic, but this time I can't resist...

Krispy Kreme is Krap around here. Tim Horton reigns supreme.

Now, back to the original topic. About Framer Select, I agree with you.

[Charles Lowry]

Krispy Kreme is KRAP?!?!?
Krap?!?

Used to have a lot of respect for you, Jim. From now on, I'll only listen to your advice on framing, business, etc. You obviously Know Knothing about Krispy Kreme!!

[Jean McLean]

Thanks for all the information on Krispy Kreems. I assume they are donuts? We don't have any in Maine! Now you know why I am wondering how Framers Select can help businesses in Maine. Jean McLean

[Bob Carter]

Krap? Them's fightin' words. Back in West Texas, the next sound you would hear would be "Get a rope"

Bu Jean, seriously, if Jay could develop a strategic partnership with KK, you know a free dozen with every workorder, something like that. Then you'd have an alliance worthy of Jay's efforts.

[This message has been edited by Bob Carter (edited March 23, 2001).]

[Bob Shirk CPF]

Too many people wait and see. How many picture framers are there in the U.S.? How many of them belong to PPFA? If half of them belonged to PPFA think of the bankroll PPFA would have to advertise in major publications on behalf of member framers. I look at a lot of organizations that people don't join because the organization doesn't do much. If the PPFA is not doing enough, join and work to get others to join. I have asked that framerselect send me some info. When I get the info from them I'll make an informed decission about signing up. If framerselect is going to work it will require a commitment of time and money from a large number of framers.

[ChrisW]

Jim is obviously on of the lucky ones down south that has been blessed with another great Canadian invention, the hallowed * Tim Horton *. I know.... I know.... it's not fair that you all can't enjoy the blessings of one in your area yet but be patient... I'm sure they're building them as fast as they can. Maybe some KK's in your area might see the light and convert.....of course they would have to be completly re-educated.

Framers-Select, sounds good, but there are no Canadian listings and concidering the size of my market and the $ exchange, I'm going to have to wait.

------------------
Wal-mart...the Ferengi of our times.

[This message has been edited by ChrisW (edited March 28, 2001).]

[Bill Ross]

Why are we compairing Jay's program to PPFA?
The program may have real benefits to the framer, but the cost will never support the+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
designed to "drive" retail customers to "brick and Mourter" shops, which didn't work. How is this program different? This program lists the framers on the web site, but the problem is how do you get the customer to find the site. Advertising --Where do you advertise and how

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Bill Ross,

According to the letter that I received from Jeff Grabowski at FramerSelect, dated March 16th.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"The first round of advertisements in the March issues of Conde:Nast Traveler, ARTnews and Elle Decor have generated numerous phone calls........we are also scheduled to appear in House & Garden and Architectural Digest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that this program is designed to be compared to PPFA - they are two different programs with a completely different focus. I also believe that if Jay's done the math on this, then the program can drive some business our direction. He certainly did the math on running his own business, and therefore I beleive that he's laid out a business plan for this effort as well.

John

------------------

The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
www.theframeworkshop.com (http://www.theframeworkshop.com)
Appleton, Wisconsin
jerserwi@aol.com
--------------------

[accent]

Some Framer Select thoughts,
Maybe I am wrong, but the primary ways of attracting customers are ,
#1 Location
#2 Word of mouth
#3 Advertising in your local area.
While I feel Framer Select is a good concept for promoting framing in general, I can not see it as a viable tool to drive customers in our door from a national level.
In our twin cities area we have formed a group of seven independent frame shops to promote our stores. We advertise in the yellow pages together as well as participating in various campaigns together.
We have had some sucesses in the past three years and some ideas that didn't fly. But overall we all have gained tremendously from our association. The majority of our business comes from a tight trading area around each of our stores. What is exciting about our group is all the collective ideas from 5 people who have many years of experience and are willing to share their expertise.
We are currently trying to put together a website to further our efforts,and also do buy some of our supplies as a group.
I admire Jay and wish him well in this new endeavor, and hope we can all benefit from his efforts.
Accent

A member of Framesmart

[frugalframer]

We initially thought because our community is more rural than metropolitan
that no one in the area would see any of the national magazines that Framer
Select has chosen. We were proven wrong.

Larson-Juhl advertises in some of the same magazines that Framer Select has chosen. We have had new customers come into the store and ask specific questions regarding Larson-Juhl product that was seen in advertised in those magazines.

For me, it is safe to assume that if a Larson-Juhl ad brought a new
customer to the store; the likelyhood that the Framer Select program will bring new customers to the store is even better. Both programs (LJ & FS)attract the upper-end consumer.

Rick - CPF cm
The Frugal Framer
Coeur d'Alene, ID