The way a customer should be.

[JackBingham,CPF]

A potentially new customer stopped in the shop on Monday and inquired about framing a large, very valuable, vintage paper poster on linen. He checks out samples in our gallery and asks various questions about picture framing. He then asks if we would be able to frame this large of poster for him. The size is 58” x 98”. We can do.

His requirements:
1. Must use a wood frame with sealed rabbits.
2. Must use UV filtering plexi.
3. Must use spacers.
4. Must use conservation/preservation materials through out.
5. Must use cotton gloves.
6. Must supply specification sheets and copies of all invoices of material used. This information will be attached to the back of frame.
7. Must supply all names and home address of all framers involved in the framing process of this poster. This information will be attached to the back of frame.
8. Customer will bring the poster to the shop when it is time to fit the poster into the frame. He will wait and watch as item is fitted.

The way a customer should be. smile.gif

Any thoughts?

Sincerely,

Jack

[Dancinbaer]

:cool: Who's this for, the FBI or CIA, Interpole?
Did you ask him if he just wanted the materials to assemble himself?

I thought Howard Hughs died.

Denny

[mbshir]

So when he has copies of all your invoices for materials, will you also include copies of your receipts for utilities, rent, insurance et al so he understands your pricing? Or do you think he'll be okay seeing that you paid $4 a foot for moulding and charging him $20 per foot?

Home addresses of framers? You've got to be kidding!

[MiterMan]

My humble opinions:

1. Those rabbits are going to make an awful mess, sealed or not.

2-5. No problem, all sound practices.

6. Are you really comfortable with letting your customer know your cost of goods, and by extension your markups? If so, go with Maryann's suggestion of including copies of utility bills, lease, etc. And remember, things like account numbers are usually on those invoices as well.

7. No way in h*** do I ever give out personal information on any employee. Period.

8. As long as he's not breathing down your neck the whole time.

Sure, this could be a lucrative job, but I wouldn't violate the privacy of my employees or give out proprietary information to any customer.

[Curly Grumble]

Jack, things must be awfully bad over in Lancaster if you are even considering this job. I've occaisionally had customers try and dictate to me how we're going to do their work (not to this degree) and I tell them to take a flying leap. Pretty nervey to ask for copies of invoices. I guess it takes all kinds, but I won't work for them. smile.gif (I put a smiley face here because 1) you did also, and 2) telling them with a smile on your face helps you keep your mental health - "up" and your blood pressure - "down").

[Dermot]

It is standard procedure that a customer can have full tractability when you do work to ISO Standards.

You could issue a certificate stating what materials you have used ie. what manufacture, batch #, grade etc. be prepared to back this up by being able to let the client have sight of the suppliers invoices if necessary, but under normal circumstances your certificate of materials used with all the relevant details on it should meet ISO requirements.

I know of one framer in Ireland who will frame to this standard with full security requirements in place, when you frame something that is irreplaceable you come up against some very stringent requirements.

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

You had better double your fitting fee. Things never go as well when someone is watching you and you can bet that your work will be slowed by answering the many questions he asks during the fitting process.

I would not include invoices.

I would not release personal information about employees. That will land you in hot water for sure.

[Tim Hayes.]

I think you should have this customer sign a waiver for being in the shop area when you are working as some insurance companies don't allow this. Make him wear goggles, gloves and ear plugs. Make him provide his Dunn and Bradstreet profile, net worth statment, and tax returns for the last 3 years in order to show that he can afford it. Make him provide a notarized original bill of sale proving that it is legally his.
Also a professional appraisal clearly stating both market and resale value. In front of this customer clear examine every square inch of the poster pointing out and making detailed notes of any imperfections or damage, take pictures of it type up your notes and both you and the customer sign them.

[MAX]

Puhleeeeeze!

You could knock out 10 "regular" $300 jobs (and in the process please 10 customers) in the same amount of time it's gonna take you to appease this clown.

No way Jose. I tell this guy: "Thanks, but no thanks".

(And maybe even give him written directions about how to get to my fiercest competitor's store) ;)

[Ron Eggers]

Jack,

One problem with being in business a long time is you start thinking you've seen everything. Thanks for reminding me of the foolishness of that assumption.

Ron

[po' framer]

This has the stench of a lawsuit in the making. I wouldn't let this guy set you up like this. I'd send him to my strongest competitor because he's wanting to take somebody down.

Dermot is right about ISO standards (for traceability of materials used in manufacturing) but it's the materials which are important, not their cost. Any invoices should reflect your retail cost of the goods, not your cost. You have nothing to hide but your cost of goods is none of his business and he has no right to expect that unless he enters into a business alliance with you. One work is not an alliance, nor is a promise of more.

If you really wish to provide both spec sheets AND invoices, put the invoices on the inside where the frame has to be disassembled to access them.

I also believe that you'd end up working for your own employees the rest of your business life if you gave their personal information to someone. How has this potential customer guaranteed that none of that information will be available either from him OR his estate? What if the work is stolen in a burglary?

If you decide to go ahead and frame this, I'd suggest the following: If the customer wishes to observe the framing process, he needs to hire a conservator/framer of your choice to co-observe and record with pictures, especially the condition of the art during the whole process, including humidity readings and air turbidity. Your lawyer should also be present and the customer should pay for that, too, one way or another.

Nothing personal, but I'd rather educate an ignorant customer than let a fox in the chickencoop. This guy is dangerous.

[Reynard]

This guy sounds like a weirdo.I would not let him into my workshop to stand over my shoulder.I get irritated when my own Dad does that!

As for supplying invoices I would tell him where he could stick them.The only invoice a customer of mine gets is the one I give them for the work I do.

I think this guy should be allowed to shop elsewhere to be honest.He is more hassle than you need.

[D_Derbonne]

What are ISO standards?

[Grumbling Mike]

My first thought would be to avoid this job but then I guess there is such athing as a $1,000,000 frame job after all. I still wouldnt list personal information.

"Shop time
60.00/hr
120.00/hr if you watch
240.00/hr if you help"

[Dermot]

http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/ISOOnline.openerpage

[D_Derbonne]

Thanks Dermot.
If I don't ask, I can't learn.

[Dermot]

Originally posted by vilgal:
Thanks Dermot.
If I don't ask, I can't learn.You are more than welcome. smile.gif

[Alan Beitz CPF MPFQ]

I think Mitreman said it :eek: :eek:

[TADPORTER]

Originally posted by MAX:
Puhleeeeeze!

You could knock out 10 "regular" $300 jobs (and in the process please 10 customers) in the same amount of time it's gonna take you to appease this clown.

No way Jose. I tell this guy: "Thanks, but no thanks".

(And maybe even give him written directions about how to get to my fiercest competitor's store) ;) Yep

[Audrey Levins]

What I'm wondering is what he intends to do with the home addresses of the framers involved. Is he going to drive over to their homes and beat them up if he doesn't approve of the way things come out?

I see no other reason for asking for this information; if he wants to contact the framers he can do it through you, at work only. If my boss gave out my home address I'd sue him. That's no one's business and the only possible intent is harm.

I don't take work home, for God's sake. I certainly don't take customers home.

And I have to agree with everyone else about his desire to watch you do it; if he's that suspicious that you're going to pull one over on him, he's going to find something wrong anyway.

Send him up river.

[JackBingham,CPF]

Ron,

After 30 plus years in this great business; I have yet to have a month go buy where something new doesn't show up. It just seems to get more complicated.
:rolleyes:
Jack

[JackBingham,CPF]

I think that this customer is justified in requesting that his requirements listed above are met, as any customer would be. I do wish more customers had some of this knowledge. They would appreciate our work more.

The first 5 items we do anyway in our shop.

Item 6 would not be a problem, as he is not requesting the cost, just the proof of material use and where purchased. (ISO Requirements? Dermot)

Item 7, under no circumstances would I give out our employees addresses.

Item 8 is not a big problem for me as I have had many people watch me fit, but of course I prefer not to be watched, mainly due to other customers stopping in the shop.

I believe the reason for these requirements is if any happens to the poster in the future, he or whoever owns this poster, will knows who to come to. A LEGAL MATTER.

I have no doubt that whatever the cost to frame this item is; he will be able to afford it. He is apparently a big collector of original vintage posters. He is also an attorney.

Sincerely,
Jack

[MerpsMom]

You almost had me convinced, Jack, that you'd be comfortable under some circumstances with this. Then you dropped the anchor: he's an attorney.

I hope you have E&O insurance: he WILL find something wrong with this. Keep us all posted.

I'm not bashing, but the proclivity is there and we've all been burned by it at one time or another.

[Audrey Levins]

I agree with MM. Wholeheartedly. Lawyers love dropping their title so that they can scare everyone into doing what they want..."Or I'll sue!"

And they usually do.

I wish you luck if you take this on.

[Audrey Levins]

And another thing that bothers me that you should definitely consider is that if this guy is such a collector, and knows so much about archival framing, where is his original framer? A guy like this should already have a frame shop he takes his valuable artwork to; I have a strong feeling he's either pissed off his other framer to the point that he can't frame there anymore, or he's already sued some other frame shop and he's looking for a new one. Possibly to sue again. Either way, a guy like this is finding a new framer for a reason.

And it also occurs to my evil little mind that this would be a great way to collect on a piece he wants to get rid of.

[osgood]

It sounds like this guy is just hoping you will make some tiny error so he can take you to the cleaners!

I would tell hime (very politely) to bugger off!

Originally posted by JackBingham,CPF:
The size is 58” x 98”. We can do.

His requirements:

6. Must supply specification sheets and copies of all invoices of material used. This information will be attached to the back of frame.

JackIf you complied with this, how would he know the invoices you supplied related to his job??? I would never permit any customer to see any invoice. They generally have the opinion that if we pay $10 for an item, they should also pay $10 for it even though we spent 2 hours of our time and used our equipment on it.

If this customer came to me with these conditions, I would gladly give him a list of all the other frame shops in town!

[ArtLady]

This is an issue of trust.

Would I want to make an appointment with this customer before I fit his project. I guess I would charge extra for that because he would be disrupting my schedule.

Would I provide the information he required well yes. But since this is not my normal procedure I would charge for that.

Would I provide the addresses of people who work for me only if I got the employees to sign off on a legal document prepared by MY attorney (we don't want any conflicts of interest here). That would cost extra money and I guess I would have to charge for that.

Well lets see if he wanted to watch me fit the project I would have to call my insurance company and get extra insurance for a non employee to be in the workshop. That would cost money and I guess I would have to charge for that.

Since I will not have the artwork to recheck the measurements I couldn't guarantee a perfect fit and of course he would be responsible for any mistakes that we would be making. So I guess I would have to charge a little something extra for that.

Lastly, I would want the full price quoted paid up front.

What does everyone think, perhaps all this extra service might add perhaps $4,000 or $5,000 to the cost of the project? Quote this to him and let him make the decision. I think he will get the message.

[katman]

No home addresses or names of my employees who may have worked on the project. In the end, if something is wrong I'm the responsible entity. If I sub out part of a job the subcontractor's name and address is discloseable.

Invoices--I could go along with releasing but I would redact pricing and account numbers so they serve as proof of materials used but in no way indicate cost.

[po' framer]

Jack, you've initiated a great discussion. I see you believing that this is doable and I think you're right, but under very controlled conditions. This guy could be a very valuable client and reference if everything is done properly, which is really what he appears to be asking. The rest of it is his setting up recourse for himself if something bad happens.

The real problem with that is that you can't guarantee that something bad is going to happen to his art in the future; you also don't know what practices and materials in use today will be discovered in the future to be harmful. BAST (Best Available & Safest Technology) is a batted-around term used in regulatory agency work which simply means that one does the best that is known at the moment. The fact that he appears to be knowledgeable is useful; you need to clearly emphasize that your work will significantly delay any degradation but won't completely prevent it.

I'd still have my attorney there filming the whole thing and chalk it up to professional care and handling for a special customer (who pays for the privilege of your time and extra care). He understands something about framing so let him go ahead and be treated special.

Being as he's an attorney, he would understand your need to prevent negative intrusion into your future business. (aka getting taken to the cleaners)

[Jim Miller]

No question about it -- This customer wants to have all the information he needs to initiate a lawsuit. If he believes anything goes wrong in the framing, you can bet everyone who worked on that piece will be in court, as well as all of the suppliers of materials. Manufacturers and distributors generally have deeper pockets than frame shops -- prime targets for litigation.

His main concern seems to be finding someone to accept the responsibility/liability for framing his collectible. If you're comfortable with that (I probably would be), charge plenty and do whatever it takes to satisfy his specifications exactly. If I were considering that job, I would have the customer sign the detailed work order, in agreement that everything specified is to his liking. And before the framed print is released from the shop, I would have his signature of approval for all work done.

Or, if anything about his specifications is questionable, I suggest declining the job, and recommending a conservator.

[MerpsMom]

Jim, please know I'm not being flippant, but how much is "plenty"? Would you be doing an hourly on this? I have one not nearly this complex, but am wondering about the extras to be added to the bill for part of the above.

[Meghan MacMillan]

Perhaps I'm being naive, but wouldn't someone whose intention was to lay the groundwork for a lawsuit be a little less obvious about it. Play his cards close to his vest, so to speak, saying "I want conservation framing" and then turning around after completion and saying "Aha! You dd not seal the rabbet! You have ruined my poster give me the keys to your house right now."

Could it be that he is simply something of an eccentric collector who has read a great deal about the preservation of what he collects?

I would not be able to comply with all of those requirements and would turn the job away, but I'd like to believe that maybe his motives are not sinister.

I do agree with Jack that an educated customer is a treat but, I prefer someone in the middle of the spectrum. I don't like a blank stare when I mention that I'll be using a rag backing and UV filtering glazing. At the same time I don't like the ones who want to know the pH level of everything and the relative humidity of the shop on the day it was fit.

[Art Barn]

All I can offer here is absolutely, positively no way on the home addresses. No way.

[Ron Eggers]

This guy sounds a tad eccentric, but I wouldn't assume he was out to separate me from the vaste fortune I've accumulated framing pictures. I would have to politely decline his proposal, however. He doesn't sound like someone who would be comfortable with a 110# black lab staring at him while he's watching me fit his poster. Also, I would NOT provide the home address for the dog or photocopies of his vaccination records. (Dogzilla would definitely enjoy the sealed rabbits, though.)

I would send him up to see John Ranes.

[Kit]

Jack, It sounds like you're seriously considering taking this man on as a new customer. If you do, I hope you will keep us all posted about the progress of the project and it's resolution. As you can see from the number of responses you've generated, everyone is interested.
Kit

[JackBingham,CPF]

Kit,

Yes I am seriously considering taking this man on as a new customer. I have yet to see the poster in question, so I have not quoted a final price. If the customer doesn’t mind the price, I don’t think I’ll have a problem doing this job, I’ll just use TLC while working on it. I will keep everyone posted as to what happens with this job whether we get it or not.

Sincerely,
Jack

[lise]

My spidey senses are tingling on this one. My feeling is that this guy could spell trouble. Nice thing about Alberta is that incorporation of a company protects all employees and shareholders from personal suits unless there is blatant willful damage or neglect. Now this would make personal employee information unneccesary.
Your employees have a right to privacy.
...just my 2 cents.

[ahohen]

WOW! Did he ask for fingerprints of all employees who will work on it?

My advice is to video tape when he exits with the frame job as proof that it left from your property safely... this will protect you from possible lawsuits!!!

Good luck...the way it sounds, you will need it.
lol
ajh

[Emibub]

Whenever a customer gets hinky things are bound to go wrong. I do agree if he was out to sue you he could be a lot less obvious about it. I don't know how deep your pockets are but it seems to me he could get more bang for his buck if he marched it over to say Michael's and had them conservation frame it and then bring out the big guns. Who knows, I just know the pressure would make me crack! Good luck with it though. Please let us know of the outcome.

[clever_nickname]

I've thought I'd heard everything but this is something else entirely (and I've framed in the presence of armed guards!) This guy is entitled to some of what he's asking for, but the invoices, addresses, etc., are definitely too much.

[JackBingham,CPF]

It's a no go. The price to ship in the plexi is too much for us to handle. :eek:

but there is a God. :D

Jack

[Curly Grumble]

Oh! I get it! He has all those requirments aaaannnndddd he wants it cheap!. Excuse me, but could someone change the name of this thread.

[ERIC]

A Sealed Rabbit is :

A) a bunnie that can balance a beach ball on it's nose.
B) a prolific seal that eats lettuce and carrots.
C) an Arctic Hare incognito.
D)a fish eating bunnie that play the horns.

OOOHHHHH RRRRONNNNNN, its your turn.

[David N Waldmann]

Originally posted by ERIC:
A Sealed Rabbit is : A molting hare (sealed and waiting for its finish coat)

Sorry, that's about the best :rolleyes: I can come up with.

[unframed_mystery]

It's okay to say 'NO'. Although in our shop we've always maintained one of our mottos is "We'll do anything for money!"
The guy wants to watch, huh? Hmm that just opens itself up to all sorts of comments...
Good luck with that project, I think the advice about having your lawyer there video taping the framing is valid. And if this guy's a 'watcher' he probably will be into video tape as well, and have no objections! hehehe... :eek:

[Kit]

I suspect that a 'sealed rabbit' must be something on the order of a 'jugged hare' but need confirmation from Across The Pond.

George? Reynard? Dermot?

Kit

[Dermot]

Sorry I'm lost I have no idea. :rolleyes: