Hey Scotch.....

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What's the difference between 924 tape and acid-free 924. How and where should I use it? For my acid-free backing paper?

[Jim Miller]

There's only one product named 924, and it's not acid free. Could you be referring to the acid free ATG introduced a couple of years ago? Some framers thought its adhesive wasn't aggressive enough.

The acid free ATG now recommended by 3M is their new "ATG Gold" (I think the number is 908 (not at the shop today). It is excellent and everyone in our shop prefers it.

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Jim,
I ordered a case of 924AF accidentally, which I don't like. I was told that the 908 did replace that product. Either way, I would like to know how framers are using it and why Scotch designed the product?
I was told the only difference was the release paper. So, does that mean the acid leaches into the adhesive?
The only thing I use ATG for is for paper backing and if I don’t hinge the mat, two small pieces under the top of the mat.
(I wish framers would stop taping completely around the artwork and hinging to the mat, as serious damage can occur if it ever needs to be disassembled.)
Is 924 acidic and why do we need 908?

[Framerguy]

Lessadigit,

I'm not sure where your information is coming from but seems to have thrown you into a temporary state of framing confusion.

First of all, 924AF was a dud. I called the distributor when I bought a case and they gave me a credit memo on it and didn't even ask to return the old tape. Now THAT'S some high quality tape when they won't even take it back!

By definition, ATG and acid free ATG are 2 different animals and it has nothing to do with the backing paper on the roll of tape.

Why did Scotch (3M) design it? Heck if I know. Other than the fact that all materials that go into a frame package should be acid free and alot of people attach their dust covers with ATG and alot of people attach mats with ATG so I guess 3M thought an acid free ATG was a good bet. (If they could get the stuff to stick.)

How do framers use ATG tape? That's a pretty basic question for which I would hope you already know the answer. I use ATG for a number of things around the frame shop other than the obvious framing applications.

Ragarding taping all around the artwork with ATG, I have been framing for over 13 years now and have visited literally hundreds of frame shops in my travels, and I have not found any professional framer that ATG's an art print down to a backing board. I HAVE torn down some decorator prints that have been attached across the top with ATG but I would be ashamed to admit that I intentionally made it a habit of ATG'ing art prints down to the backing board. (No finger pointing in your direction, it's just that I would be reluctant to admit that I did this.)

Is 924 acidic? Yes. Why do we need 908? Because it isn't.

FGII

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Hi Framerguy,
Don't beat on me too bad. I think it is an interesting question.

I'm sure many framers have been using ATG responsibly for many years. In my opinion, it’s acceptable (I know not preferred) to secure a mat with ATG to a backing board if it's used sparingly, preferably at the top and only to maintain proper alignment with the art. I use this method because it’s easier to maintain alignment than hinging.

I believe you misunderstood me when I said, “taping around the artwork”. I was referring to the over use of tape attaching the mat to the backing board and the hinging (unrelated to the subject) of artwork to the mat. Have you ever tried to separate a mat from a backing that has been ATGed completely "around" an artwork or damaged artwork because it was hinged to the mat when you lifted it? It almost happened to me this morning, and I have seen countless others.

A customer asked me to replace broken glass on an etching that had been framed by another "professional framer". Since the mat had been damaged, I also had to replace it. It had been completely taped down all around the etching. It was very difficult to remove the mat without damaging the print. Then to top if off, the etching was hinged to the mat with a linen tape that was stronger than the paper, both a very dangerous practice and cost him a new mount. That’s part of the reason I brought the use question up. So that those who use this practice may reconsider.

Back to the 924 & 908 question. I won’t argue that there is a need for acid-free ATG, but how often do we line a rabbet if it’s not in contact with the art? If the price is close, why do we need both?

Maybe I should have asked; what is the ph of 924, why do we need both, and how are the Grumblers using them.
I would like to learn and I will use 908 if it really makes a difference.

Enjoy your weekend

[EllenAtHowards]

Well, I will put my hand up in the air. When I apprenticed at a small chain of frame/craft stores, I "learned" to put ATG around all four sides of a mat opening, center carefully in the air and 'plop' down. They didn't slip either! hehehe. Then the boss got "cheap" and decreed that we would only use ATG across the top of the mat opening. Easier to center, allowed the art to move (it's a joke folks... I KNOW it's a baaaaad thing) Only after we found out about Decor and then more importantly PPFA were we even in the Care of Art Ballpark... but it WAS 1979, after all.... Contrary to my usual sign-off... don't take ANY of the above!!!

[BUDDY]

If I may ,I'd like to play Devil's advocate here. Given that some use ATG to hold down their dust covers ,and a lot of these covers are Kraft Paper does the Ph of the tape make a difference?
Next with the understading that if we secure the mats to the mount board on all sides we can achive the same problem as secureing the work on all four sides;does it also matter that we secure Two are more mats with this ATG even if it is only between the mats?Can the intorduction of any acid barring materials inside the frame package cause problems such as migration or outgassing?
And if any of these are answered yes can anything other than a totaly C/P package be Acid free?Let the Flamming begin.LESS I hope the answers give you MORE to Ponder.LOL
BUDDY

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Thank you Buddy!

Oh, buy the way, I use acid-free backing paper.

[Framerguy]

Regarding the actual attaching of mats one to the other, if a set of mats is cut using the accepted method of under sizing the bottom mat, then that mat is a smaller dimension than the top mat. I don't believe that ATG applied only across the top of the mats will hold them together over a long period of time, especially large heavier mats. Taping all 4 sides will allow the mats, under normal environmental conditions, to stay in proper alignment.

I had one occurrance of a framing job brought into my shop with the back mat slipped down behind the top mat. I tore the piece apart and found that the back mat was attached with ATG across the top only and the tape had broken its bond allowing the back mat to slip down and throw the mat alignment off. Granted, it was only 1 occurrance in 13 years but the shop that did the job (not mine) got a bad rap from the customer for not doing the job right. I wonder how many other framers have come across the same problem when tearing down somebody else's work?

Separating mats that are attached with ATG on all sides is fairly simple if you take your time and run a burnishing bone between the mats. I have separated mats many times using this method with no problems other than occasionally pulling small bits of the surface paper off the mat in places. But, if you are replacing a damaged mat, what harm is there?

I suppose that this is another case of "this is my way of doing things and that is your way of doing things" and, as long as it works and accomplishes the job with no damage to the art work, there are always more than one way to get the job done. ;)

framerguy