Chamber of Cohorts

[Jay H]

When I first opened I joined the local Chamber of Commerce. It was ok but as a new business I had a hard time parting with the dues money and so the second year I let my dues lapse. As you all know I’m settled into my final location and things are going great. I have actually been thinking about getting back involved with the Chamber. One main reason is that I miss rubbing shoulders with like minded business owners. I always like talking business more than talking framing anyway. I missed it.

This morning I went to the local business that does some photo restoration for me. I learned that the chamber has dumped 80 photos on her to be resized and plopped into Hobby Lobby frames. When they asked why Great Angles wasn’t doing the framing they responded “He’s not a member anymore.”

I went and looked at the membership directory and as it turns out neither is Hobby Lobby!!!!!

Now I understand them showing loyality to businesses that show loyality to them but this is silly. Its almost as if by being a member and dropping out has actually put me behind those that was never a memeber in the pecking order.

I’m sure they will come and hit me up about being a member again soon. I can’t wait!

[Mecianne]

We are chamber members in our second year of business. They have had two newspaper pages framed by us.

I dropped by about 2 weeks ago to deliver the last frame, complimentary hangers with business cards attached, & several wedding/photography directories in which we and other members had advertised. She was quick to let me know that the company that published the directories were not members. I was quick to point to the vast array of magazines & other directories already available while questioning their membership status. She was quick to take my directories from me and place them alongside of these others.

(hmm...I am not even going to rant about the fact that Derek took photographs free of charge for their website and the 2005 brochure...and the fact that the only time I have seen fellow members grace me with their presence was at our grand opening...they got their picture in the paper...hmm...I am sure I will be a member as long as I am in business...go figure)

[ERIC]

I have found my CoC to be an 'all talk and no action' and worse 'do as I say, not as I do' type of organization.

Your story sounds very familiar to me.

[Maryann]

Sounds like you have a really active chamber if they're framing 80 photos in one shot. We're lucky if we get three a year and we do all the chambers framing!

Instead of picking a fight with them, wouldn't it be more productive to rejoin and send them a note that you're looking forward to helping them with their framing needs in the future, members supporting members, etc.

But who needs to be proactive in this booming economy.

[Rick Bergeron - CPF]

Jay,

very similar here.... except the CoC oldtimers actually told us "Don't expect any referrals from members until you refer at least $xxxx.yy of business to each". (yes, 4 digits). This was at the new members welcome meeting where new members were seated at the table farthest from the front and most isolated from the rest of the group.

Then, the CoC organized a program & spent CoC moneys that was designed to specifically benefit framing & galleries of the Downtown merchants, of which only 27% were CoC members. The Downtown merchants assn spent $0 on the program. Coincidently, the CoC and Downtown Merchants Assn are in the same building and share the same employees and same managers.

[Jay H]

If they would have said "Hobby Lobby" is a memeber then this would be a non-issue. That honey and not vinegar approach can work both ways. Infact an 80 frame order might have just been the nudge I needed. They need members as bad as I need frame orders. There is no reason they couldn't have at least let me know about it becuase after all I was at least a memeber once and might have been again!

They certianly aren't doing 80 a year. That isn't the norm by any means.

[Jack Cee]

Chambers of Commerce have what you may call and individual personality; depending upon membership and the Board of Directors it may be beneficial to business or detrimental.

Example: At one time, several business owners tried to get our local chamber involved in a downtown business event involving a "free BBQ", street music, open houses etc. They were passively supportive to a point. Then they refused to publish announcements of the event and to post the announcement in the community bulletin board. The following year they lost about 25% of their members and the board of directors was replaced.

With the new board and new members, the personality of the Chamber changed and the community supported them. Two years latter the Chamber reverted back to Directors from Government, do-gooders and retired people that did not have any sense of what a business owner feels.

If your Chamber is composed of Directors that are business owners it will be more supportive of business and you should be a member.

If you have the patience and energy to become an active member and Director then join for the long haul.

Jack Cee

[Bob Carter]

Hey Jay-Perhaps they made a typical assumption (one that pretty much every other consumer does, too) that HL would be cheaper. And perhaps, they might have made an exception for a current member. But, absent that "exception" they may have gone with whom they thought was the "low cost" provider

Now, if anybody ought to have a case, it might be any current member that is a framer

Let's face it, these guys have a responsibility to spend member's monies wisely (without debating which framing is better). But, it would have been wiser to have put it out "to bid" with a clever little recruiting twist

[Jay H]

That could very well be on the money Bob. But isn't that a bit hypocritical to buy frames from me when I'm a member, if its not wise use of members monies, and then never give me the chance to bid the job when I'm not?

The point is well taken though.

[Barb Pelton]

Jay,
I recommend being a member, but then, all Chambers are not created equally. Ours has seen good bad and indifferent Directors.

I think it pays to be involved (you knew I'd say that, didn't you) beyond just paying the dues.
Serving on a committee is a good way to get your foot in the door.
I also let them know early on that I would appreciate their support when I can have it.

Our local Chamber will do business with members first and beyond that, it is usually a bid basis.
The fact that they didn't come to you is probably bad politics, but then again, there maybe something else going on behind the scenes. HL might be sponsering an upcoming Business After Hours or something (sometimes those are sponsered by non members--at least here they are). It would definately be worth asking a few questions and taking steps to make sure this type of thing doesn't happen again--surely they will be doing more framing in the future.

But you know the real value is the networking opportunities. I'll probably get my dues back ($150.) in one social gathering. (And I'm usually asked if I'm interested in bartering the dues anyway. You might be able to suggest that when they come calling. "Sure, let me frame the awards for the Annual Recognition Banquet in exchange for the dues, since I'm trying to get established in a new location."

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Excellent discussion and excellent timing.

I concur with Bob's evaluation of the Chamber's framing decision with Hobby Lobby....perceived value (In absence of a frame shop member.)

We are a 28 year old business and were members for the first 3-4 years. In those days, the Fox Cities Chamber of Commerce & Industry (http://www.foxcitieschamber.com/) seemed more focused on large business and manufacturing than the retail sector.... Membership dropped.

Skip to today....after twenty plus years, two local "Chamber Ambassadors" invited me to a coffee meeting.

And two "Business Connection" social gatherings later, I'm serious thinking of rejoining. This last Business Connection had over 300 attendees..............quite the networking opportunity. And I would say that networking probably presents us with one of the biggest perks to membership.

I'd be curious to others experiences with regular networking at Chamber functions?

John

[B. Newman]

For smaller cities, the Chamber might be the way to go, but for larger cities, we (small business owners) sometimes get lost in the crowd. In those cases, the smaller organizations are usually better.

I am a charter member of the East Knox County Business and Professional Association. We chartered in 1990. I've been on the board several times, a treasurer, and am currently vice-president. I am very active and have worked hard for this organization.

I can also trace a great deal of customers either directly or indirectly to that membership.

The key? Whatever you belong to - work in it!

[Jay H]

One event I participated in several times was what they called "Friday Morning Connection". What I learned was that is was mostly a referral program for insurance, real estate, and investor types.

You would "network" with them there and then they would, one at a time, follow you back to your store like you don't have a thing in the World to do.

The worst was when they would bring some little certificate. They would make it clear to you that they will probably want tons of these in the future so they need to be inexpensive. This is all just a facade because just as the transaction is nearing its end, they ask if they can make an appointment with you to discuss your future (insurance, real estate, or retirement). Ironcilly never did I get another of this "ton".

I learned to pick up on this right away. The worst part is there isn't a good counter for it. You have to say "yes" to the meeting, even though you have already been through it twice before this week.

Maybe I’m just upset because they “worked” it better than me. Rarely did I end one of those transactions and not feel like the life had been sucked out of me and that I needed a shower to get the slime off me.

There is also an event called "Business After Hours". This is not a business event at all. This is a glorified toga party. You do learn a lot about people there! We can just leave it at that.

I also learned that it was the exact same faces at these events so after you have attended them 2 or 3 times, you have covered everybody.

The one group they had that I liked was CYP or Chamber of Young Professionals. It’s where business owners under 40 would get together. They would tour big companies and have other field trips. It’s great but not a good way to get referrals for framing.

What I liked most about it, again, was the contacts. Not really for business but for peers! It sounds silly but it really helps if business is sucking or you have a question about a lease or advertising if you have a friend you can call. Well I met lots of friends and it’s a great source for more. You just got to wade through a lot of sludge to find one. Business referrals? Not so much.

Sorry to sound so negative but it is what it is.

[Mecianne]

Our COC is EXACTLY the same, Jay. Only, we don't have the CYP thing. And our Friday Morning Connection is called Chamber Coffee (which was actually a better time to discuss business, b/c people were actually sober), but they haven't had one since March.

[Barb Pelton]

The networking opportunities are excellent.

(For me personally).
I'm not as active as Betty, but I do serve on the small business committee. Right now, we have a Director that is very pro small business as opposed to past ones that focused strictly on industrial and large retail growth.

Ok, here's a couple of examples. Last week we had a Business after Hours and it was hosted by a network station. They were looking for "small businesses with newsworthy stories" to do 3 minute segments to air during newbreaks. Usually these are "paid" spots (at the tune of $800. a pop), but because they were seeking contacts through the Chamber, my store came up regarding the competition win. So, they were set up there in another room and filmed an interview; it will air across the tri state area in a couple of weeks. Will I get business from it? Who knows, but it was a freebie, so I'm not shelling out the money to find out.

Also, I made a great connection with someone who is going to help me with an art show/charitable event that we're doing in a couple of months. That contact would have happened anyway, but because of the relaxed atmosphere, we were really able to brainstorm some things and wonderful ideas flowed out of it. She agreed to do a mailing to her supporter list--5-600 people, as well as arrange for some press coverage. Had I made that contact during business hours, cold, I don't think we would have gotten that far with the ideas.

I sold a pr. of earrings I was wearing--she came to the store to pick them up today. $80.

I can't tell you how many people talked to me about framing. I hear about new businesses coming in so I can make contacts about who will be doing their framing. (business and personal)It's always that way. Of course I get hit up too...

I could tell you more, but I have to go now!

[Jerry Ervin]

Jay

If you would have been in the local chamber here, they would have brought you the 80 and would want you to do them for free. They don't even want to give you your cost back. FREE!!!!

They tried to bleed me dry.

I really don't think that they could talk fast enough to get me to join again.

My biggest competitor has joined. Good for him. Now they can bleed him.

[Framerguy]

I have belonged to both types of COC's, the type that takes your dues and does nothing but have a ribbon cutting and they give you a plastic plaque. And the other will take your dues, have a ribbon cutting, do a news release for you, give you a plastic clock, AND send all their framing to you to do. I liked the second one much better.

I have mentioned the Business Networking International group before on this forum. I was involved in it before I closed my business in FWB. I became involved in it again upon moving back down to FL. I have always had a good response from them as they only allow one representative business of each type into the local chapter. I have not made a presentation to them yet that I didn't get some framing out of the meeting. And they are very supportive of each other, recommending each other to other businesses and friends. And they account for each recommendation by giving a recommendation slip to the member to whom the recommendation was given AND later on that member will give a Thank You note back to the first member along with the dollar amount that the recommendation generated to the business.

For example, the first half of 2006 had generated a total of $241,355 spent in member businesses as a result of recommendations by other businesses. That is a chunk of change for a total membership of under 50 businesses. And some of the businesses had no recommendations at all during that first 6 months.

Just another idea for networking your business with a group of dedicated peers. I don't doubt that BNI is like COC depending on where you are located. It just happens that the local group down here is more motivated to helping each other than in some other parts of the country.

Framerguy

[Bob Roy]

Originally posted by Jerry Ervin:
Jay

If you would have been in the local chamber here, they would have brought you the 80 and would want you to do them for free. They don't even want to give you your cost back. FREE!!!!

They tried to bleed me dry.

... Yes but think of all the realtors, financial advisors and insurance agents you met.

[Val]

I've been invited to attend the weekly breakfast meeting of the local Business Network group this week. One of my framing customers is a business professional member. He asked me if I was interested in growing my business. It's like the one Framerguy was talking about. It is not COC. In fact, he's also on the COC board, and said the networking group is not at all like the COC, which is more a political organization here, lobbying for business laws, etc. He didn't recommend COC membership for me! Said it would probably be a "waste of money and time". Especially now, as the board recently invited the long-time director to retire and the COC os undergoing a re-organization.

He said the networking group has proven to be very effective for him as a local business owner, many referrals, and has seen a return on his membership fees many-fold since joining.It would take one small framing referral per quarter to break even for me. "Dues" mostly cover the weekly breakfasts! I would be the only frame shop/gallery in membership if I choose to join. Sounds interesting. Will report back about it on Wednesday.

Anyone else have experience with non-COC networking groups?

[RoboFramer]

Val,

A good customer of mine - a photographer - is a member of such a group and gave me an identical spiel. Only difference was he wouldn't stop going on about it, and started becoming a bit of a pain in the proverbial, like a cold calling -won't-take-no-for-an-answer rep! He was like a Networkers Witness!

Turns out he gets a nice backhander for any new recruit.

What put me off (apart from that) was the early morning meetings - I'm not good in the mornings - now make that a DINNER club - that would be different!

Anyway, I've only heard good things about these networking groups, my son (an estate agent) is a member of one and gets a lot of business from it, but I think that that type of business would benefit more than our type.

[Framerguy]

................... but I think that that type of business would benefit more than our type.

Sorry to seem to pick on you John, but this is just the attitude that I have been harping on, forming an opinion without facts. If what you said is true and valid in every case, then that makes me a blatant liar in my last post on this subject.

I don't say that these networking groups are for everyone and I don't say that any particular group is more or less efficient than another. Quite frankly some of these business groups are interested in the few businesses that organized the group in the beginning and the newer members simply feed funds to the veteran businesses. There are meetings and alot of lip service going on but no real results for the new businesses. But the Business Networking International group that I DID refer to that is located in our area of the country&nbsp IS a good group and DOES refer its members to other people at every chance. It all depends on the organization, drive of the leadership, and composition of the membership. Yes, we meet at 7:00 AM every Wednesday morning. Yes, it is a pain to get up to attend a meeting that early when your store hours are 10 AM to 6 PM but it is like everything in our lives that will produce useful results. It takes some effort&nbsp on our parts to make it happen!

I would suggest checking out any and all business groups that you have an opportunity to join and see if that group is what you are looking for in networking your business to others. You can go to this site (http://www.bni.com) to check out the BNI group and learn what their goals are as a group.

But, please don't make such blanket statements as "but they won't have any benefit for our type of business" unless you can back that up with facts which carry much more credence with me than personal opinion.

No offense intended, John, just more of a clarification of feelings on my part.

Framerguy

[Jay H]

Nobody said "but they won't have any benefit for our type of business".

"I think that that type of business would benefit more than our type." is a rather innocent statment. I don't see any reason to get upset by it. My experiances lead me to agree with it as those are the people that I encountered the most along with insurance guys and investor types.

One question I have is how much time should we reasonable devote to courting the same relitivly small group of people? In any particular event you will only really discuss your business to what 10-15 or 20 people tops! The second event you talk about your shop to less new people becuase you will cover many of the same people.

Oh and one more thought (one crosses my mind every 15 minutes). I wouldn't suggest doing one second of networking until all of the "networking" with existing customers is completed. I would make sure all the "Thank you" notes and direct mail advertising and such is done before tackling this new group. They are much tougher sell and more time consuming. I'm not doing that very well right now and thats my excuse for not messing with it. But my Dell 3100cn is in the crosshairs right now!!!!

Carry on.

[Bob Carter]

Jay- A few years back, we joined these groups, too, and had very similar results as expressed by many. This may help date the experience, but we had many "follow up" calls from cell phone reps, a couple of med insurance folks, an apartment locator service and even a dental office. I'm certain there were others, but I truly felt that my "new member" status was one of "new target" status. I went back a few times but, uncomfortably, way too many conversations stated with "So, you are in the framing biz? You must have a great need to be in contact with your stores at all times" or the pitch du jour

I don't doubt for a minute that some have benefitted nicely, but, I just had a hard time with the old "So, you are in the insurance biz. I'm sure you have lots of documents to frame." Let's face it some folks are quite good at it, some quite horrific

Then again, perhaps it's just me. I, too, thought John's comment was pretty tame

[Framerguy]

Could be that I am just very easily upset, Jay, who knows what with all the meds I am supposedly taking and the faulty BP that I apparently am suffering from but I do apologize to John for the apparent mis-stating of his words (out of context) near the end of my post. That wasn't meant to reflect exactly what John said but I had badly phrased it so most anyone probably would have taken it that way.

As to how much time should you devote to a group of that apparent size, that is a call that you have to make based on what reaction you are receiving from the group and how professional and interesting your presentations are for them. Maybe you shouldn't even mess with them at all based on your present feelings about how your CofC treated you. That can happen to anyone, it just depends on whose ox is being gored at the time. I can tell you this, if you enter into a situation with a group like BNI or the CofC with a chip on your shoulder or some old baggage from a past experience, don't expect that group to welcome you with open arms if you start trying to unload that old baggage on them. They can smell a bleeding carcass a mile away.

I saw a prominent printing firm raise all kinds of heck with the Chamber about sending their printing to another printing company 2 years ago. It finally came out that the Chamber wanted something done with the printing that this printing company couldn't provide so they used the other company. I don't think that they owed the first company any explanation at all if that company could not provide for them and they were aware of that right from the get go. Kinda like HL being able to provide el cheapo frames that they assumed you didn't have or couldn't provide.

In our case, since Jan. 1 of this year, we have had just under $11,000 in retail sales tracked directly back to referrals we received from the BNI group. Our dues were just under $400 for the year. I'd say that we put whatever time was required to attend those weekly meetings to good use.
If we didn't attend another meeting for the rest of the year (which would be a royally stupid move on our part), we still come out as a winner.

There are also a few other groups in this area that I wouldn't consider joining if their memberships were free.

FGII

[B. Newman]

The difference in these organizations and the one I refered to, (and belong to) is in our tag line - we are "Business and Professional People caring, sharing, and growing in East Knox County..."

We are not together in order to network, but in service to our (business) community which makes us visable and (therefore) loyal to doing business with one another.

Anytime anyone belongs to an organization JUST to network, they can expect everyone else to belong for the same reason. But, when one belongs in order to serve, good things just naturally come back from it...

[Val]

Quote from Jay: I wouldn't suggest doing one second of networking until all of the "networking" with existing customers is completed.

Is that EVER "completed" Jay? I hope not!Shouldn't that be an ongoing process?? And why should I limit myself to networking with only my existing customers?

He gave me a brochure of existing members and some of those business people are already my customers. In fact, he didn't mention it to me until he had his hand on the door on the way out, after he dropped off $1,000 worth of framing to be done! He has been a customer in that shop for years, didn't even know I was the new owner. "By the way..." he said.

Learning about my community and promoting my own business can't hurt. Most peple don't know yet about the change in ownership yet and all the changes we've made. If I only talk with 15-20 people the first time, and each one would tell only one person, then 30-40 people would hear, then... word of mouth has always been my best form of advertising in the past. Isn't that what networking is about?

If/when I'm not comfortable, I'll stop going. Simple as that. But how will I know unti I try? Because someone said it didn't work for them?Everything is slightly suspicious to me right now, I've had an awful lot of vultures come out of the cracks since I took over my shop, but I'm willing to give this one a lookover. Sure seems cheaper than a one-shot newspaper ad that doesn't seem to work around here.

And I will get to know who my peers are. I've lived here for 15 years, and don't really know! There are other people besides real estate, attorneys and investors. A Hair dresser, a cleaning service, jeweler, music store, houselhold inventory business, etc. And if I had experience with any one of them that was less than successful as a business, I would not refer them. That isn't a requirement.

I'm not much of a morning person either, but an opportunity to rub elbows over a 7:30 breakfast, with business members of my community doesn't sound so bad, when I'd just be sitting at home having coffee in my pajamas here on the Grumble like I do every morning! I need to step out of the Box and be not only a framer but a business owner and a productive member of this community. What can it hurt?

[Val]

P.S. The previous owner was a member. He'll be in tomorrow, I'll ask him what his experience was and then go anyway to see for myself.

[Jay H]

Val I didn't mean to suggest that you should contact your existing customers once and then move on. I meant that until you have a system in place to stay in constant contact with them, it might not be wise to start digging for new customers. The reason is simple. Existing customers already do business with you. They should be the easiest to re-sell. Time and money spent on that group will pay off 10 fold over prospects.

Now if your system is in place, tested, and working, then move on to prospects. If you are neglecting your existing customer, the way I find myself doing, you may want to show them some TLC long before searching for new customers.

For me that means an automated "thank you" card a few weeks after every order, a quarterly mailing, and something more substantial annually (like a calender or something). Then and only then do I think I'll reconsider the more expensive and less fruitfull "networking".

[Framerguy]

Val,

At least you are approaching this with an open mind and not letting the negative feelings of others affect your judgement. I didn't know beans about the group of which I talked when I first attended. I went as a favor to one of my business friends as a substitute for him but I was immediately accepted as a business peer and treated as such. That made an impression on me that lasted to this day. When that changes, maybe I'll change the way I approach the group.

As you mentioned, what harm can it do?? If it isn't your cup of tea you know which door to head toward. As your tagline reads, "And who wants to leave butt marks in the sands of time?"

FGII

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by Jay H:
and something more substantial annually (like a calender or something). Jay, let me know if you'd like some info on the calendar company that I use. Some of my customers even call me if I happen to miss sending them one. I've been doing this for several years now.

[Val]

Thanks for the support, FG. I DID have a chip about the COC for a long time. I worked in the COC office for over a year when I first moved here 15 years ago. I saw the real inner workings of our local one, and it wasn't pretty. The director was a jerk (that's polite!), and it was allowed to go on way too long, that's why they recently "invited" him to retire! Folks finally had enough and were dropping out at an alarming rate. But, as has been mentioned here, I believe each local COC chapter has its own personality, and although their purpose is supposed to be the same, we know sometimes they are not. The experience of one person may be different from area to area. I will reserve judgement until I have my own experience with this one again, if I ever do.

I will reconsider later, when they have a chance to re-organize and recover from a tyrant director. I understand the new director is much more small-business oriented and does not wear a crown. ;)

[Jim Miller]

In our area networking clubs are independent, and not affiliated with the C of C. Our local C of C has its own events and networking certainly goes on there, but the group focuses more on community events, local civic issues, political issues, and other matters that affect business. It isn't all about generating sales leads, like the networking groups.

In our suburban bedroom community of about 15,000 population, our C of C usually has 50 or so members and guests at its monthly luncheons. We're afraid of missing something important or fun, so we go.

Jay, if I experienced what happened to you, I would go straight to the Executive Director or President of the C of C, and tell him/her exactly what you said here. There's no need to be vindictive or harsh, but it's important for the C of C to support its members/prospective members, and it failed miserably in your case. If the response in that conversation is not favorable, then you are probably right to avoid that group.