My pet peeve with molding companies

[Magnolia Framing]

I think I am developing a pet peeve with the molding companies that I do business with.

A good case in point is what happened yesterday. A customer had come in about two months ago wanting to buy a frame that matched one they already had. It was a ready made frame, and I found a direct replacement with one of the companies that I do business with. However, it was not in stock - but I was told that it would be available by the end of May.

My customer told me to go ahead and order it, since she would not need it until Father's Day. So, I placed the order.

She came in yesterday wanting to know if it had arrived. I called the company, but was told that the expected delivery date had slipped until mid-July. That sure doesn't put me (or any other framer) in a good position.

I am really curious to know if this problem is consistent among our suppliers. I know that it happens quite consistently with us - and with multiple suppliers. Do any of you have the same problem?

Wouldn't it be much easier on us if the company would contact us if and when their suppliers slip a delivery date?

[BILL WARD]

weve all been there done that, yes???? I just dropped a supplier for (mostly) this reason...even greater sin---they had No idea of the statusf o their order--not when it would be in, not if it would be in, not if it was in the making, etc, etc.....NOTHING!!!!!! and didnt think it important enough to call and tell me it wasnt going to arrive(alread 1mo over due from orig order date). I do realize that that the manufacturing end of the chain is beyond their immediate control, but they obviously didnt care about/werent capable of keeping track of their order processes
they are only 1 of 3 that I do long distance ordering with so Im not the best judge...but I have also had "it was to be here next week but will now be next month" tales from my "close/steady" suppliers and they manage to inform me of the problem....Id drop em(replace em 1st!!!) and talk to the owner/manager and explain exactly why

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

I have one company that I have had an issue similar to this with. More than once. I told them next time it happens I will no longer display their samples.

Here's what happened: I order 2 mouldings, in length, one is out of stock at the closest warehouse. I am never notified of this. They ship the other one. The box arrives. I open it, happy that I have the mouldings I need to finish these orders and to my surprise, there is only one moulding in the box. After a few moments of cursing, I pick up the phone, call "customer service" to inquire... I get the following, "That item is out of stock in out Location 1 warehouse so we didn't ship it."

I ask, "Why wasn't I called or notified in any way that that item was not available?" "

"Oh, actually we have pleanty in Location 2, it is just not in our Location 1 warehouse where your orders are filled."

"Soooo, do you think I could get some shipped from wherever it is?

"We can do that. You just need to place a new order."

Again I ask, "Why wasn't I notified of this or made aware of this option three days ago when I placed the order? Surely if your computer can tell you you have 1200 feet in Location 2, it can tell you that you have 0 feet in location 1."

"Don't know Sir."

"Please ship me what I need from Location 2 and I assume I will not have to pay the additional freight."

"You have to pay the freight Sir, This is a new, seperate order."

"Send the moulding and then connect me with my sales rep."

In the end, they did the right thing by me, but then it happened again........and again they fixed it.....

STRIKE TWO!

[dougj]

It sure does make us look bad if not loose a customer.
Custom came in for custom framing in Feb.
When we went to order the chop were told out of stock for 4 to 6 wks. Called the customer they said they would wait.
Just got the chop in yesterday 4 months later.
Good for us that the customer was so understanding.We will be giving them a gift certificate. But we have lost framing jobs and possibly customers because of out of stock.

Should make the supplier pay for the GC.

If at all possible we have the customer pick another frame (if it is more expensive we will try to give it to them for the original price.

Should make the supplier pay the difference
(which some will do if it is replaced with their moulding)

I also think the supplier should notify us of any delays as a courtesy. If we lose a customer they lose a order.

[Paul N]

Now, why doesn't anyone mention any names here??

What's the point of having a forum where you can tell horror stories about unreliable suppliers if we're scared we might offend the supplier??

Haven't those suppliers done enough damage to be mentioned by name here and to be dropped as a supplier from your list?? If they don't see their names plainly here, what incentives have they to improve?? Maybe those in charge have no idea how bad they are.

I had delivery problems with a closed corner company , CDNV, and I made it clear to them - in no uncertain terms - that if they don't get their act together, I am taking my business elsewhere. I made this clear to the OWNER, not to the grunts who take the work order. And when the new sales rep showed up, she heard the same ultimatum.

The owner came over a week later and promised better delivery and communications, and they did improve. I was really glad, because they have great quality and they were willing to fix their problems.

I removed La Marche way before they went belly-up, by the way.

[J Phipps TN]

I'm with you Paul. Make them "own it". If a moulding company does me wrong, I'm going to say it. Alot of the reps are on the Grumble, and are more than willing to make it right.
If they aren't then we need to know. graemlins/smileyshot22.gif

I also do the opposite too. If a moulding company is good to me, I always sing thier praises. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

That's what this forum is for! graemlins/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

[LeighAnn]

Last week I had the owner of DJ Wholesale in Idaho call me to let me know one of the mouldings I ordered had a flaw in the middle of the stick. They were low on the moulding and was calling to make sure I could get the frame cut from the remaining good parts of the moulding.

Now that's what I like. It doesn't matter if its the owner or the warehouse guy/gal who normally pulls the order, at least they called to make sure I was taken care of.

[wpfay]

We're probably going to see a bit more of this in the short run while manufacturing facilities are shifted from one country to the next. There will probably be a secondary period of adjustment when the new mouldings don't match the corner samples. I really don't know of any of the suppliers that won't be affected by this, except perhaps the upper end length folks...the Italian stuff will still be made in Italy (or Spain).

[Val]

I also recently pulled a company's samples from the wall. Consistantly back-ordered, out-of-stock, or discontinued. Out of the last 6 orders, 5 were one of the above, and the back-orders kept being back-ordered beyond the original date. I asked for a new price list so we could get a heads-up, and the discontinues were still on it. Finally had enough. Too bad.
I understand they're still in "transition" (used to be Bay moulding, now Orr), but how long does a transition take? My customers don't care, I've never heard from a rep, and my complaints have never been addressed, except from the poor woman who takes the orders, and I'm sure she gets tired of saying "I'm so sorry, Dear".
P.S. I've still not thrown out the samples, just in case someone might call/stop by and offer an explanation....hint-hint.

[Baer Charlton]

Val, you probably will have this tall lanky drink of water with a cowboy hat walk through your door.

If he isn't bearing a gift of almonds, throw him out as an imposter.

If he's got the nuts, it's Jim Orr himself; and a very nice guy. graemlins/thumbsup.gif But I understand about the transition of Bay moulding.... it's driving us nuts too. [But they are packed in a box.... waiting].

[Val]

What's packed in the box, the nuts or the mouldings??
That's what she said (the mouldings, not the nuts!) last October! And February, and April...waiting for what?? Sigh...

[Rick Granick]

I'm dumpsterizing the samples of a supplier I've been using for almost 34 years (including where I worked while I was in school). Same reasons outlined here. It's sad, but the frustrations just aren't worth it anymore. The good news is my new supplier has some very nice stuff at reasonable prices. I've just started ordering, but so far the service has been good too.
:cool: Rick

[El Framo]

I know this may start a firestorm, but I have to give props to LJ in the way they handle their service. We had a customer pay around $1000.00 for one of their Medici water gilded frames. The customer who obviously has some number of personalities (in her own head)to consult, came back a year later and complained about the finish (which was exactly as it should have been). They replaced the frame no questions asked! This level of service not only enables me to feel my back is covered, but it makes me look good in front of the customer.

In an age of declining customer care, they are everything a small shop could ask for.

[Jim Miller]

When a moulding is out of stock, the supplier should be honest about delivery. The truth is that too often they are guessing.

More and more these days, the shipment isn't coming from a factory in Georgia or Alabama, but from a factory in China or Korea. Because international shipping delays are common, The delivery time could vary by months from what was expected. Last year I was waiting for a moulding that was supposed to arrive at a port in NYC in September. It did, but was held up there until late November. There seems to be no way to speed up the process. You just wait.

My favorite suppliers are rarely out of stock, which is part of the reason they are my favorite suppliers. But when it happens to me, I suggest the customer come back and make another selection. If he/she is adamant about buying the backordered moulding, I am careful to explain that the promised month could easily become two or three months. That way, most of the surprises are pleasant ones.

[Paul N]

Today, June 2, 2006, I received a frame I ordered from Nurre Caxton in November, 2005....

Do you think that after 8 months they'd ask first - before they ship - if the customer is still alive and still waiting for the long overdue frame?

No, the computer "Automagically" spits out the orders and they ship them. Great system they have there, it has no idea how fragile human patience is.

Do you think they will fix this wonderful software anomaly?? I doubt it.

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Paul N:
Do you think that after 8 months they'd ask first - After that amount of time, I am sure my customer and I have found another solution and moved on with life.

I would not be paying for that product.

[JRB]

I guess what is bugging me the most about this whole situation is the lack of follow up from the offending suppliers.

They can afford telephone computers that explain to us how important our call is to them as it shifts us around via menu selections and number pressing. They can afford computers that will calculate our bills to the micro penny and know to the hour the length of time since our last payment. They can look up on their computers and know to the inch what mouldings are in stock or out of stock, heck, the even know the number of screw eyes that are in a box that someone opened.

They know everything about their businesses with the help of their computer systems, yet they have absolutely no method of keeping us informed about the status of our back orders, in some cases, if the back order even exists.

I have to agree with Paul on this one, in fact, I have always advocated it, NAME the offending supplier. This is a valuable tool for us AND them. If your complaint is a valid one and it's happened to a lot of us, the chances are really good that the supplier may do something about it.

It is not a guarantee, such as in La Marche's case, however if the company is not in the process of being raped by the owners, chances are the problem will get some attention from them.

My other peeve is companies that have it in stock, yet take several weeks to get it to us. I have even named the worst offender on The Grumble only to have the owner respond with how great and fast their service actually is.

I just placed an order with them for a few boxes of hangers, the following day I called another, larger company, and placed a more complex order. They are shipping from the Midwest, I will receive that order today. This company always keeps me informed of the status of my order via e-mail. The hangers will, at the best, arrive at my door at the tail end of next week or the following week, nobody has a clue when for sure, and they are only shipping from Nevada.

This company I am not going to name because most of us know who it is and most of us like the owner, so we put up with his slower than normal delivery. Why can one company have a computer system that keeps customers informed and another one can't?

John

[Bob Carter]

My biggest "pet peeve" is the old proverbial order 12ft and get 19ft deal (see Sliding Markup thread)

I am sorry, but it strikes me a little hard to believe that every single stinking bundle in that rack had more than 20ft? What were the rest 25-30 ft?

When was the last time you ever got a bundle of 30ft?

How come when I order 75 ft, I always get a bunch of 14ft bundles (and 6 of 'em). How come it never is 5 @ 14ft and one at 19ft?

Man, I'm sounding like Andy Rooney

[Rogatory]

You need 20'. Roll the dice, cross your fingers and order 20' hoping the ends are in good shape and that they are actually 10'. The order comes in and you have 1 stick at 9.142439'!

The other one is on backorder.
Do you think it will match? (no)

Send it back at the companys expence, wait 3 weeks for the credit. (btw what do think they do with your $ while you wait?)

It seems to me it wold be cheaper to call and ask me what to do about the situation rather than send less than half and have to pay to return it. Another cost passed along to us I'm sure.

[Emibub]

I have a local supplier here who has a lot of out of stocks they can't give delivery dates on. In fact, some of them have not been ordered yet and they don't even know when they will order them. How do you deal with that? Basically, they have minimum purchases they have to make from the manufacturers in order to get their best price. So, they won't order until they have a bigger need for it. Meanwhile at Out on a Whim Ranch.....I'm sorry, not only is it out of stock but it hasn't been ordered and won't be until they run out of enough to make it worth their while............wanna wait?

I'm soooooo tired of that. I wanna support these guys too. They have gotten the bulk of my business.

My opinion is that times are hard with lots of shops closing and the suppliers are having to maintain lower levels of inventory so they aren't sitting on so much product anticipating it will sell. But, meanwhile, we get frustrated waiting and that further erodes sales. It is a delicate balance.......

[JRB]

The order from the Midwest company was at my door when I got to work this morning. I'll let you know when I receive the hangers.

John

[VolFan]

I agree with Paul and several others, why don't we mention names of suppliers that are troublesome. Who is everyone scared of? If you suck to one of your customers I guarantee that somebody is saying your name to somebody else...right? Let me be one of the first. Arquati/ProFrame sucks. They have cost me at least four good customers that I can remember with their out of stocks and broken promises. I can order three mouldings from them and at least ONE is out of stock every time. What a pain in the ***. Well, it happened again this week even after I called and made sure that the moulding I was going to order was in stock. Sure enough they called back next day and said they were out of stock even though their computer said they had it. I received such glee throwing away their samples. What these companies fell to understand is that WE are their livelihood and that for the most part, our customers don't give a **** where the mouldings we sell come from. I seriously doubt that any of my customers are going to come in and say, "Hey, where are all of your Arquati mouldings?".....The only person that is going to say that is the rep when they come for a visit.

[John Brinkley]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ERIC]

VolFan - well said. You need to speak up more, please. I dealt with Proframe once, they saved my butt on a profile dicontinued by my local dist'r, so I had a very different expirience than you are having. This might be the reason some of us are slow to call out the name of a vendor.

Maybe I've just managed to dodge the bullet many times over . . . but I have not had the bad experiences some of you have had. Not sure how or why. In nine years, I have not had to pull a company off the wall due to bad service . . . yet.

Compared to other businesses, I think that we as a group are more likely to get screwed up by our vendors, and are way too slow to create real noise.

When you consider the investment in the design process with the customer, combined with our own personal preferences, it makes for an emotionally charged situation. But it is to our disadvantage. We stall, we wait, we justify and hope for the best. How many times do we find ourselves in a co-dependant relationship that just causes pain. Things may clear up, but how long until we find ourselves in the same situation for the same reason?

I went to have some vinyl signs made. I wanted a particular type of gold. The owner said 'I don't deal with that company anymore for a variety of reasons. But I can get you this . . . '. As it happens, the alternative was just fine, maybe better now that I have it up. I bet he could have given in to me and picked up the phone to order it for me. He did not. But he still took good care of me AND kept our dollars going to a vendor that took care of us.

[Bob Carter]

I received some great/interesting emails from Grumblers (mostly lurkers) about the sliding scale thread

One of the best was a post that dealt with Garrett Moulding. They are a smaller group that has developed what sounds to be a great alternative for th eframer that buys length but does get burned by the "order 12ft, get 19ft" thing. Apparently they have a single stick price that is between bundle and chop(but discounts apply for multiple sticks)

It appears that most framers could benefit from such a plan.

Anybody use this plan and how does it work for you?

I wish these guys well and I may have to look into their lines. I love that "principal to principal" interaction

Isn't it about time we heard about some of the good things from our suplliers? They do those things everyday without a notice and when they drop the ball, it's another thread on lousy suppliers

[Jerry Ervin]

Bob

Does any of your suppliers offer 'straight cut'?

The supplier cuts 4 straight length pieces and you put the bevel cut and join. The price is somewhere in between length and chop.

I love it!

I wished that all vendors offered this.

AMPF currently offers this and MAX will soon.

[Baer Charlton]

Thanks for the kind words about Garrett, Bob.

There are many framers across the nation that have discovered just what you have been told.

If your interested, we can send your samples directly from the mill in Georgia. Or from our warehouse and International Business Center in Santa Cruz, CA.

Below, Please find the list of discontinued mouldings for this last year:

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graemlins/beer.gif

Jerry, the amazing thing about "straight" or "blunt" cuts is that it requires the framer to think. They have to 1) remember that there is a difference between inside and outside dimentions. 2)Know HOW to find that difference (3xwidth) and 3) remember to add an inch or so for saw shatter.

Just ask AMPF how many "ordered wrong" calls they get on blunts. Lori at Garrett has to walk a couple of framers a day on how to find the length they really need.

[Val]

Studio Moulding (I think it's Studio? will check when I get to the shop) has a similar thing, with a "straight cut" charge. You order by frame size and get only the footage you ordered,in 4 pieces, but you miter it yourself. Charges are between length price and chop price.

Speaking of peaves, I ordered a chopped and joined frame last week from a new-to-me vendor and asked what the total would be, as it was coming in COD until my credit app. is approved...$34 and some change , plus shipping. Said she didn't know the total at that time, but would call me with the it, so I could have a check ready in case it came in when I was out.

3 days later, they called....$69!! More for the shipping than for the frame, and too late to cancel because it was already chopped and joined! I was shocked! :eek: I asked how it was being shipped, she said ground UPS. Apparently it was 1/2" oversized and that's where they got me.

I learned a lesson there. Ask for the total BEFORE the order is processed (even though I did, insist it be figured before it's cut)....or join the thing myself...it was a rush job. Phooey on me.

[Patrick Leeland]

Bob so am I to understand that if it is 8 foot you pay $18.00 and if it is 10 foot you pay $18.00? Making up numbers of course? If this is true, they could be loosing or making money. I would think loosing unless they have planned in advance for this type of thing, then you would think their prices are padded???

Could you expalin further. Or is it a flat rate when you order say 12 and need 19-that you get something as far as price goes between chop and lenght for whatever remainder needed?


I have a feeling that I am making this too complicated


PL

You guys post kwick...Baer tell me the details

[Baer Charlton]

Patrick, If you need 7.2 feet, you get sent an 8' stick whacked in half for cheaper UPS> what you don't get is 24' because of a 20' minumum or 3-8' sticks whacked into 6-4' sticks.

You will get charged for the 8' not 24'.

If you only need 3.1' get a blunt 4' cut and pay for 4' of moulding, min fee, and shipping...

[Cliff Wilson]

Baer, for both AMPF and Studio I order with the same dimensions I would use for a chop, but they figure out how much "extra" to give me so I can cut the mitre succesfully. They allow plenty for "saw shatter."

It's less money to me, no "extra" footage, and all it costs me is the time to make 8 cuts. Since they are already in four sticks, you cut all at one end, move the saw and cut the other ends ... it's even faster than cutting from a stick!

[Bob Carter]

Hi Jerry-I don't trade with Garrett but was simply advised on their program. They sound like decent folks and perhaps since my ol' buddy Baer must reps for them, I will probably give a look (although I am a "buy local" kind of guy)

My understanding is that you give them the actual size and they take the effort to find what's closest as oppossed to ship you a bundle that ensures a 20% "up sell" that I suspect may be the "de facto" method

It just struck me a very "client friendly" way of doing biz. The better testimony might come from those that actually use the vendor

I just know what most are used to and that ain't so grand

[wpfay]

A factor in Garrett's favor is that they are dealing with hardwoods for the most part, and hardwood comes in random length and width. So their product is typically random length. They will have stock of patterns that range in length from about 4' up to about 12'.
The same is true of our Grumble friendly Vermont Hardwoods. You tell them your needs are and they will pull moulding that most closely fills those needs.

Bob, I can't help but think that your comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but assuming it wasn't what is you solution to the overage (read left-overs) created by this problem. I personally have a veritable forest of 4' and 5' pieces of moulding that yearn for a purpose. At times I think "landfill", at others I try to come up with some profitable solution (I know, I'm supposed to have made the profit already, so pitching the remains wouldn't be that great a sin. would it?).

[MerpsMom]

A good supplier: I ordered a chop from Omega last Monday. While giving the number, the phone rep said it was in "timeout" due to quality-control issues. I asked if there was enough to do my frame. She gave me to the warehouse where I was told they'd know by Friday.

Friday, I got a call that it was still not good enough to release and the replacements may be in in a week, a month, or even three months. Then they called back two days later to see if there was anything else they could do for me.

I like Omega's mouldings, and especially their customer service. (Wish their chop prices would drop just a teensy, though. smile.gif

[Patrick Leeland]

Baer and Bob, what vendors still make you buy in bundles? I thought this was gone a few years ago. The shops I have been at we would order and they wouls send as close to what we ordered. Now when you do 9 ft and the sticks come in 8...that was the issue. I know a couple folks that play the game-ok then give me 8ft and a ___inch leg to match. Maybe I am clueless on this?

PL

[Doug Gemmell]

The only "bundle" issue I've noticed with any of our suppliers is Omega's "Break Bundle Fee". If you only order one stick, they tack on $2.00 for this "service".

I guess it really puts them out to have break that bundle! :rolleyes:

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

I use the "Straight Cut" options from Studio and AMPF and think they are great. Keeps the actual material cost lower and I get no waste. Comes in chop size boxes so freight is cheaper than length and you get the same last minute sizing flexibility. I wish more vendors would do this. Then you realy only get what you need.

[Paul N]

Originally posted by Doug Gemmell:
The only "bundle" issue I've noticed with any of our suppliers is Omega's "Break Bundle Fee". If you only order one stick, they tack on $2.00 for this "service".

I guess it really puts them out to have break that bundle! :rolleyes: Now, do you think the customer right after you who orders a stick form the same bundle will be hit with another $2 fee? Nah....of course not!

I wonder how many $2 fees one bundle generates!

[Patrick Leeland]

I think their maybe alot of $2.00 enough to pay for a couple feet of moulding one is not receving. I would love to have a vendor try to make this happen. This is one of the foolish things they do that count for alot. They would be in the trash as soon as they thought up this cokamaaameee idea.


PL

[Bob Carter]

Hey Wally-My post was straight forward. I thought it sounded like a good option and admired their creative approach

Perhaps how effectively any of these programs might work depends on how often you get that "ordered 12ft, got 19ft" thing. At $4-5/ft that ain't insignificant

As usual, we get way too much "forest for the trees" menatlity. $2 to save $28 sounds pretty wise to me

And, Wally, there are only so many RM's one can make to use up that mountain of 4-5ft sticks. Getting closer to actual needs just seemed so much smarter

I guess the key might be to do some numbers and see how often this might work. But, a favorite parlor game here is to shoot it down before we know if it will fly at all, much less, well

[Doug Gemmell]

Originally posted by Bob Carter:


As usual, we get way too much "forest for the trees" menatlity. $2 to save $28 sounds pretty wise to me


I guess the key might be to do some numbers and see how often this might work. But, a favorite parlor game here is to shoot it down before we know if it will fly at all, much less, well Bob,

How about spending $0 to save $28 as we would with most suppliers? No others that I know of add on this fee to "break a bundle".

And couldn't the "parlor game" be viewed as healthy scrutiny? Any idea that is proposed should be looked at from all angles as there are many business models out here.

Please don't take it personally. smile.gif

[Bob Carter]

Oh, heck, Doug-Nothing personal at all

I guess we all speak from our own experiences, but I don't know of any supplier that will break a bundle to pull one stick at no charge for that service

Imagine that someone will unwrap that bundle, then rewrap the one stick to send to you (and label it) and then rewrap the other stick(s) and (re-label it).

All to save you from that other 7-8ft? Isn't that worth $2?

Now, the reason I think so much of this is a parlor game is that I doubt if anyone will change much from what actually happens-neither they way we buy nor the way they ship. But, we do love to "examine" things, don't we?

Maybe another poll might be which suppliers will break a bundle to get me exactly what I want even if I was willing to pay for that service

I'll start by saying the following either don't, haven't or just won't tell me:

Larson
Studio
Omega
CMI
South Mountain
Roma

If they do, and I don't know about it, then this whole argument of mine is moot. And I would love to find out they do

Doug, I do agree that we ought to scutinize our practices-they are healthy, indeed. But, I'm not sure how much scrutiny goes into this stuff

Reminds me of a great quote I heard somewhere-"Without data, we're just a bunch of jerks with opinions"

[Jay H]

I hate to sound foolish but are we talking about suppliers (buy moulding and resell it) or moulding companies (import it and resell it)?

I don't buy from moulding companies unless its boxes or several 50' lengths.

As far as suppliers I don't have a single one that doesn’t break bundles for free. One of my favorites will actually send you a 4' piece if they have one and you order 3'. I'm not talking about straight cut either. I'm talking about their "scrap".

As far as a "break the bundle" fee, it sounds silly to me. Why not a "clean the saw" fee for chops, and a "pull the bundle" fee for those, or my favorite "open the box and pull you one matboard and put it in a plastic bag" fee. I think these people lay awake at night and dream of fees they can put on an invoice.

One supplier of mine even has a $1.00 charge for glass. That’s fine but I would think that charge would be incorporated into the list price when a new price list comes out but no. It’s there even after a price update. Its smoke and mirrors if you ask me.

A recent experience I had was when a supplier told me "We won't order that moulding for several weeks" so I called Universal (I'm going to confirm this tomorrow but I think it's right) to order it directly. I needed 8'. They don't break bundles so I bought 2 sticks and paid shipping and “less than $100 fee” (I guess they ran out of ideas at that point and stopped charging me.) My COGS is pathetic by this point. It sure does make it hard to both satisfy customers and make a living.

[Doug Gemmell]

Larson, Studio, and Roma do not list this "Break bundle fee" on their invoices but they must do it. We order 9' and we receive and are billed for the moulding that is delivered, usually 9, 9.75, or 10'. That is not to say that a fee isn't incorporated in their moulding prices to cover the labor involved to break a bundle.

Actually, I don't even know what a bundle is. I've never seen a bundle. I've ordered and received 18'/20' many times and never seen a bundle. Is it 2 sticks, 20 sticks? Does it depend on the moulding? Is a bundle the amount that is packaged by the company that manufactures the moulding? What about a box? Are there so many bundles in a box? I'm beginning to think breaking a bundle is like hunting for snipe.

As I mentioned previously, Omega lists this charge on the invoice. Now I like Omega and the fee is no big deal. Just think it is odd that they are our only supplier that I know of that does this.

We don't buy from CMI or South Mountain.

[realhotglass]

Don't you folk get a price for a case of glass, or a much higher price for loose sheets ?

We don't supply moulding, but I can imagine that to open a set quantity (bundle) of moulding, repacking and restocking the remainder, and wrapping a small quantity to ship is going to cost.

I was trying to find a similar frame shop product to compare.
Say a pre sealed bag of 10 hangers cost $2 . . . would you break that open and sell a pair for $0.40 ? Or maybe more like $0.60 or $0.80 ?

[Jay H]

Les, we already pay considerably more for short length than a box. What's that price difference for if not to repackage it?

I have never heard of anybody buying a lite of glass but unless you were set up to do that, I could imagine it would be very expensive and yes I agree that somebody has to pay for that. But I think seperating moulding is like breaking a case of Cokes. Its not rocket surgery. I'm not really complaining though because like I said, I've never heard of that charge.

[Patrick Leeland]

I tend to go with Jay on this, would i not make senes to have this in standard pricing as oppossed to little charges all over that one can not track? I would find it difficult to deal with companies that I did know the price of an item before I ordered it. Like I could go to the pricing book and see a number and believe the number. Or go into the computer and know my numbers were correct.

The bundles I think people are speaking of are the two stick wrapped together. So somewhere around 20 ft. One stick already costs more, then 50-most companies have a 50ft get ___% off. So one would assume that when you get below 50ft that there is a rewrapping charge in the price. I would think as you up the footage it is still in there for the companies to do business.

I do not want to go to column A for per foot cost, then column B for wrapping, then C for delivery, then D for gas charge, instead they go from the wall to the trash.

PL

[Bob Carter]

This thread is rapidily leaving planet Earth

I think it naive to expect that we will get what we ask for unless it is by chance. When we order Framerica (consistent 10ft sticks), we know that if we need 12ft, we will get 20. True for 13, 14, 15, well you get it. It is a known commodity and we "charge" accordingly

If there was a point (and it is well lost by now) it s that this will happen and I thought that at least one company had a creative alternative.

This "idioscyncracy" is not much difference that 10 hot dogs and 8 buns

The other point might well be to consider those "sliding discounts" when knowing the same happens with low and medium priced mldgs as well as those expensive honkers

[Mike LeCompte CPF]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned freight and other hidden fees. IF an order's under a certain amount, we get hit with a fee anywhere from $3 to $10 "handling fee". UPS out of two of our suppliers in Atlanta, four hours away, can be as high as $18. Another out of Fl--12 hours away--and their bill is $4 to $6.

No one can explain these charges.

I can. I'll dump the higher ones, stick to the cheapest one, and use mostly LJ which is free delivery (and YES I KNOW the freight is hidden in the cost to me. That's another issue

[Doug Gemmell]

Bob, if you need 12 ft. will Framerica let you order 10 ft. plus a 2 ft. leg (chop)?

With our suppliers, we find this to be less expensive than getting two 10 ft. lengths when we need less than 14 feet or so.

[Bob Carter]

Hi Doug-We typically buy box when dealing with a vendor, but with a disributor, it gets down to who does what

The great thing about this thread is that there are some creative ways around the problems we face.

Unfortunately, we often don't know what the end result might be until the stuff hits the back door in most cases

The variables make this a problem that really filters back to each case by case scenario. Just hard to plan that way

But, we always know who ends up holding the short end of the stick (pun intended)

[5675]

Just ask AMPF how many "ordered wrong" calls they get on blunts. Lori at Garrett has to walk a couple of framers a day on how to find the length they really need. [/QB][/QUOTE]

So maybe they should write something up that can be printed and hung above the chopper! Step by Step :D

[JRB]

I received the hooks today, about one week since I placed my order. Things seem to be speeding up at that company.

After reflecting on this issue, I think a major problem that many old, established companies may be having is that they have many old, established, set in their ways, employees as well. People who have worked hard for these companies for years and years, using systems that at one time, were state of the art.

Most of these old timers are doing great jobs, and are very proud of the work they are doing. How can an owner deal with that without disrupting the entire system?

I think, from now on, I will have a whole lot more patience with these older companies, with their long time staff of employees.

John

[Jeff Rodier]

Originally posted by Jay H:

As far as a "break the bundle" fee, it sounds silly to me. Why not a "clean the saw" fee for chops, and a "pull the bundle" fee for those, or my favorite "open the box and pull you one matboard and put it in a plastic bag" fee. I think these people lay awake at night and dream of fees they can put on an invoice.
Jay,

Using this logic, shouldn't a cut mat to your customer be cheaper than a full sheet of mat board. You are only cutting an opening and have the benefit of reselling the fallout on another job.

[David N Waldmann]

Originally posted by Grumbler F.K.A. Harry:
I use the "Straight Cut" options from Studio and AMPF and think they are great. Keeps the actual material cost lower and I get no waste. Comes in chop size boxes so freight is cheaper than length and you get the same last minute sizing flexibility. I wish more vendors would do this.I think it's great (for you) that any do. I can't imagine the benefit for the supplier if they charge less than chop. It saves maybe one minute of precise measuring and checking to do a miter instead of a straight cut. And, as was pointed out either earlier in this thread or a similar one, you have to hope that the person ordering knows how to figure out what the straight-cut length needs to be so that they can get the right inside dimension - no one is happy when that gets messed up. Also, if you are rounding up dimensions it could even bump it to the next increment of quantity and actually cost more than if you had just ordered chop.

As to the $2 bundle-break charge, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, isn't it. You only know and care about what it costs you to do something extra for your customer and can't understand why your supplier is doing the same thing. (I'm not defending our policy - we don't have bundles - it's just the principle)

[Cliff Wilson]

I'd like to re-iterate a correction to a misconception based on one vendor's practice that seems to prevail ... for AMPF and Studio you do not have to do ANY special calculation. You order with the same dimensions you would order for a chop and they give you enough to do the mitre. I have always recieved enough.

David, when I first heard about the option I wondered how it was saving enough time and money to warrant the lower price. I still don't completely understand it. But, I noticed in some cases, the cut is so sloppy (which is completely irrelevant!) that I would guess it was cut with a hand chopper. I wonder if they have some VERY portable cutting device, so they can cut the "straight cuts" almost "at the bin" thus saving time to and from some cutting station. Only a theory, since I don't know.

It really is a great option for us, no waste, no extra, yet, less $ than chop.

[Jerry Ervin]

Looking at this from the supplier point of view, when your customer calls about a chop that will not join properly, what would you as a supplier do? Replace the chop of course.

Who's responsibility is it when a joint won't join? The person who cut the miter. Who cuts the miter on a 'straight cut'? The customer, not the supplier.

If a supplier has perfect saws, perfect employees, and packages chops perfectly, I guess there is no upside to the supplier.

The upside to us, the framers, is that we can charge a retail price based on chop and get a slightly wider margin or use the extra profit to help cover the shipping charges.