Companies that don't sell to the home-based [Archive]

Framerguy

May 11th, 2006, 11:19 AM

Whew, Dave, alot of us started out as homebased framers. Heck I wouldn't be a framer today if I had to jump into framing with both feet. I never had any inclination to frame other than the curiousity of how it was done and the creative process of taking some wood and pulp materials and glass sheets and making some really nice framed art pieces out of them. My interest in framing was a transitional thing. I taught a vocational program for the first 3 years I was learning about the framing trade and I never took a serious look at it as a full time business until that time.

I don't think that all homebased framers should be blindfolded and shot. Different people have different reasons for what they do. And, until you have all the information about anyone's situation, I would suggest that you safe your weapon and ask some questions first.

I'm not trying to start anything controversial but there are too many condemning statements made towards homebased framers without knowing all the facts.

Framerguy

FrameMakers

May 11th, 2006, 11:29 AM

Frameguy, I didn't bash anyone. I said that I would support companies that support me.

As to you wouldn't have become a framer if you had to jump in with both feet. This is the a major problem of our industry. Not home-based but business that are started with out real commitment, under-funded, under-educated, under-planned etc...

This is a reason that the average shop is only doing $125,000 a year in sales. Most shops begin by stubing their toe.

wpfay

May 11th, 2006, 11:39 AM

The fact that this is an issue indicates that there are a significant enough number of home based businesses to keep the suppliers attention.
Not selling to home based framers would possibly put some of the local distributors out of business.
My business started out as home based and even after the storefront was established the cutting and assembly process was done at the home.
Even in my thoughts about my exit strategy from this business, I have seriously considered returning to being home based in semi-retirement.
The decision by the suppliers on whether or not to deal with any business client should be a business decision. Only one of the major suppliers has seen fit to exclude home based operators. It would seem that the majority still like taking money from everyone.

Edit: I was reviewing this while Dave was responding. You are absolutely right Dave, but that is, in fact, the reality of the business. Little overhead, little training, little investment, and no regulations makes the business very appealing at a boot-strap level.
As far as a mutual support system between vendor and client goes, as I pointed out above, there must be enough financial incentive for the ditributors to continue selliing to any and all kinds of framing businesses. When the client has the clout to dictate who the vendor will sell to, then we'll call them Walmart.

BUDDY

May 11th, 2006, 11:51 AM

John as some have already told you some suppliers leave that up to their reps. IMHO it can have alot to do with how much you order and what percentage of your trade they get. I am not completely in favor of that treatment.However there are some extenuateing circumstances that can cause this to be company policy and they aren't just Storefront loyalty( but that does play into the picture)'

Exampls can be some locations have zoneing regulations that prohibit the operation ofa commerical business from a residential neghiborhood. this causes a lot of difficulty when the supplier tries to make deliveries( especially if they use their own trucks) since they are not allowed to travel in these neighborhoods with a truck and they could be fined for doing so.( this doesn't mention thatparking rstrictions and sinage in residential areas are also a hurdle to contend with or WITHOUT.)I'll bet even some department stores and UPS can balk at some locations.

Still another problem is if you aren't duely liscened in some areas you don't pay taxes and as such they would be forced to sell to you at retail or wholesale when you aren't supposed to be doing that sort of trade.

Also without properliscening ANYONE could say they were a shop and then the supplier might end up selling to consumers which might amount to them doing retail or competeing for the same customers that some of the storefronts and HB are trying to sell to .

I really don't know all the explanations but i do know that it isn't just that they don't like people who opperate out of their houses. So check with the supplier and ask WHY and then tell them how you are complting with their fears.It might just work.

Besides just blanketly dropping all suppliers who would rather not go in residential neighborhoods is almost Identical to them just not trading with some one becuse they don't have a regular STOREFRONT.

Their should be a reason for either and an attempt to show how either is trying to comply.
BUDDY

Tim Hayes.

May 11th, 2006, 12:14 PM

I would think that by now you would be tired of this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam so many many many times before.

johnny

May 11th, 2006, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Framerguy:
Whew, Dave, alot of us started out as homebased framers. Heck I wouldn't be a framer today if I had to jump into framing with both feet. I never had any inclination to frame other than the curiousity of how it was done and the creative process of taking some wood and pulp materials and glass sheets and making some really nice framed art pieces out of them. My interest in framing was a transitional thing. I taught a vocational program for the first 3 years I was learning about the framing trade and I never took a serious look at it as a full time business until that time.

I don't think that all homebased framers should be blindfolded and shot. Different people have different reasons for what they do. And, until you have all the information about anyone's situation, I would suggest that you safe your weapon and ask some questions first.

I'm not trying to start anything controversial but there are too many condemning statements made towards homebased framers without knowing all the facts.

Framerguy You've probably yet to be the guy who has to worry about paying rent, insurances, utilities, and people who have entrusted you to provide their income (nevermind yourself) and then see ads in the paper by a previous customer located a couple streets away which say "Why pay for expensive framing from someone with a lot of overhead? Come see me and pay up to 50% less." And yes, that was an actual ad. And yes, she also pulled away a whole clatch of local artists who "co-oped" there, costing thousands in sales every month. And, yes, you can bet that when I saw chop boxes on her front lawn and knew who her suppliers were it affected things. Having something like that happen changes your perspective. Having customers open up out of their homes is only second worst to having employees open up out of their homes with your pricing and customer list. Then they contact your customers and make you look, at best, like a dumbass for employing them in the first place. In both cases, screw the suppliers who sell to homes. Die. Die. Die.

wpfay

May 11th, 2006, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Tim Hayes.:
I would think that by now you would be tired of this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam so many many many times before. Which topic hasn't?
Seems most topics get recycled on a regular basis whenever a fresh crop of framers sign on to the G. Don't see the 7th grade English teacher changing their curriculum just because they taught the same stuff last year.

Jay H

May 11th, 2006, 12:43 PM

The very first frame I ever sold was through the front door of my store.

I went in with both feet expecting certain benfits like "wholesale" pricing and delivery.

Many suppliers in other industries aren't even reconizing web baised businesses as legit enough for wholesale pricing.

Under cut me by wholesaleing to any Joe with a garage and a $20 bill and you won't get my 20-
$20's.

Carry on.

Tim Hayes.

May 11th, 2006, 01:02 PM

Maybe if some English teachers would change their curriculums then we might have better educated children.

J Phipps TN

May 11th, 2006, 01:04 PM

I dont' think that home based business's are being shot at or put down. Nobody is really bothered by them, but if you are a retail store,and pay over head for that store, I think there should be a few advantages to that.

There should be certain mouldings that are only available to retail stores. Other wise, why even bother. We need to have somethings that other people can't get or why even come to us. Our prices can't be less because of our over head.

We retailers are the ones really doing the advertising for the moulding companies To the general public.

I'm all for people having homebased framing in their homes, I mean one day, I hope to retire to do that. But I don't expect the larger high-end moulding companies to sell to me when I do.

The fact is Wholesale stores are set up to sale to the retailers not everybody at home.

That's why I support Larson Juhl so much, and really advertise that I carry thier mouldings.
I don't push mouldings that just anybody can get.

FrameMakers

May 11th, 2006, 01:14 PM

Well the next step is already happening. Many wholesalers are selling to the public aswell as to Homers. DOH!

Jim Miller

May 11th, 2006, 01:24 PM

Framerguy, I doubt that Dave intended a personal affront to all framers who are, or once were home-based. Like Dave, I disdain wholesale suppliers who will sell to just anyone who claims to be in business.

For example, our local supplier sells at wholesale prices to hobbyist photographers, artists, calligraphers, and others who sell their work on occasion. I doubt that the supplier requires evidence of a vendor's license. At least some of those should rightfully be our customers, not our suppliers' customers, because they are not framing professionally.

Admittedly, it is a problem to determine at what point one who starts out as a hobbyist becomes a legitimate wholesale buyer of framing materials.

Our industry includes a lot of home-based framers, some of whom are excellent practitioners. Those who operate professionally deserve the same stature and wholesale buying privileges as any storefront framing business.

That is, a professional framer could work as well in a basement shop, or a spare bedroom, or a barn, or a warehouse, as in a storefront.

Jerry Ervin

May 11th, 2006, 01:27 PM

The original question was who does and who doesn't. Not should they or shouldn't they.

As far as I know, the only other distributor than Larson Juhl that does not sell to home-based is AMPF. There may be more. The only way to know is to pursue the lines you are really interested in. The answer will be either yes we do or no we don't.

As for should they or shouldn't they. I could write volumes on the subject.

DVieau2

May 11th, 2006, 01:28 PM

Larson sells to home based framers.

A lot of companies have an official policy that says they don't, but they do.

Doug

Bob Larson

May 11th, 2006, 02:46 PM

Larson sells to home based frames who used to be retail-store types. Maybe, if there isn't much competition in an area, they go a little easier on it, but I couldn't for the life of me convince LJ to sell me moulding before I took control of the property, even though I had the signed lease, because they didn't want to sell to a garage framer.

Ron Eggers

May 11th, 2006, 03:04 PM

Larson sells to home based frames who used to be retail-store types. I bought from L and J and then L-J for 28 years before I moved my shop into my future (working on it) home. They don't sell to me now.

I'm not bitter and I won't bad mouth a very good company over it.

BTW, I charge the same prices I did when I had the storefront (though I don't update them as frequently.)

I think being a 7th grade English teacher would be really hard.

Framerguy

May 11th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Quote by johnny:

You've probably yet to be the guy who has to worry about paying rent, insurances, utilities, and people who have entrusted you to provide their income (nevermind yourself) and then see ads in the paper by a previous customer located a couple streets away which say "Why pay for expensive framing from someone with a lot of overhead?

You know, johnny, it really tickles me how much some of you new framers know about some of us old guys and what we've done and whether we have made any meaningful contributions to helping some of you along over the years and you base comments like that thoughtless response above on one poorly worded sentence from a post that wasn't even focused on my background or biography as a picture framer/business owner. You and Jay must have read something into that post that wasn't intended whatsoever.

I think what I said was I had no earthly intention of EVER becoming a professional framer AT THE TIME I was framing out of my house! Let me rephrase one sentence for both of you.

If anybody had come to me at THAT POINT IN TIME and said, "Yeah, you ought to just jump in with both feet and start framing full time I NEVER would have EVER considered doing it!!

AT THAT POINT IN TIME I had no wish to be a framer!! I was buying premade frame kits from Light Impressions and matboard from a local Dick Blick and doing framing for the college where I worked (as my interest grew) and my family and my friends and that was all, period. I wasn't buying wholesale from anyone. I wasn't soliciting any business away from any outside frameshops. I was in fact one of the best friends with the only framer in the area where I lived and it was HIS ENCOURAGEMENT that pushed me forward to becoming serious about framing as a career.

It was a very sad day for me when I got word that my close friend, Larry Green, who encouraged me so much and actually was so instrumental in my first venture as a full time framer had died at a city council meeting. He was mayor of the little town where his family lived and had a massive heart attack at the meeting. I had vowed that, when his son Mark took over his frameshop, I would do all in my power to help him along and mentor him as needed and I can honestly say that he was as good a framer as any one of you new guys bar none.

Economics forced Mark to close his shop last year as Ivan did mine but neither of us are lesser framers for having to close our ventures. And we hold no ill feelings towards anyone else who wants to learn and take our places in the framing venue in that part of the country. (Southern IL in case you're interested in relocating.)

After 5 years on the Grumble and over 5000 posts I feel that I have contributed more than my share to help others further their framing skills and have encouraged many to hang in there despite the adversities that they face with their shops. To insinuate that I haven't "paid my dues" and am not qualified to speak as a veteran framer about homebased or storefront or any other part of this field is simply showing you ignorance and your inexperience and I am OK with that if you are.

Look, I am not in need of a pat on the back for ANYTHING I have done but I sure wish some of you would do a little research into who you are poking absurdities at before you show your level of apparent intelligence in front of thousands of your peers. Heck we all clown around here from time to time but there is a lot of background on the Grumble that gives credit to people like Betty Newman and MerpsMom and Wally Faye and so many others that had their starts as homebased framers and are now respected in this community as knowledgeable individuals. And to lump all homebased framers into one little black pot of viperous blood suckers that are stealing profits from reputable framers is just not called for by anyone.

I am here to say that some of these so called "reputable" framers are the very ones that some of you are bitching about their shoddy framing jobs here on the forum. Let's use a little bit of common sense and show some respect to people like Betty Newman who has become one of the most motivating people that I have had the pleasure of seeing post on the Grumble. What did you say, ....... no, you didn't mention Betty by name but, when you make a blanket condemnation of homebased framers, you are also condemning Betty and all those who, like Betty, have circumstances that dictate where they work at THIS POINT IN TIME.

Framerguy

Jay H

May 11th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Bob Larson:
Larson sells to home based frames who used to be retail-store types. Maybe, if there isn't much competition in an area, they go a little easier on it... Yea there is a similar set up here with a lady who closed her storefront.

Framing Goddess

May 11th, 2006, 05:47 PM

Tom,
I think johnny was just presenting the other, very real, side of this issue. And he would know, he has been in the BIZ for a lo-o-o-o-ng time, fyi. He has seen a lot of changes, and not all for the better, and he is still here and has every right to have the attitude he does.

I would know, because I am in the same town and have seen these changes deliberately wrought by a few and have an acute awareness of who has done what and how ethically in this area.

It IS all about ethics, you know, the actions that johnny described are not limited to homebased framers. And, alternately, a home based professional framer charges professional prices, acts professionally and that's that.

To be mindful of which suppliers sell to these shysters is not a bad thing. It is up to those of us armed with the knowlege to act on it as we see fit. But, count me as one who does not mind knowing.

The Mark you mentioned- is that "illleavethelightonferya?" Mark I met in Atlanta?

edie the curious goddess

B. Newman

May 11th, 2006, 06:24 PM

Why, thank you Tom. (The Southern Lady said as she blushed... redface.gif )

I just knew Johnny wasn't talking 'bout me, nor Nona Powers either for that matter.

There are "located at their home address" based framers and then there are "frame at the kitchen table at home" based framers.

There is a difference doncha know ;) ?

Or as Forrest Gump would have put it, "stupid is as stupid does..." It's all in the attitude.

Besides, how many "homebased framers" do you know that have full-time employees? graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Naaa, he wasn't talking about me... he just didn't know any better.

Framerguy

May 11th, 2006, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Framing Goddess:
Tom,
I think johnny was just presenting the other, very real, side of this issue. And he would know, he has been in the BIZ for a lo-o-o-o-ng time, fyi. He has seen a lot of changes, and not all for the better, and he is still here and has every right to have the attitude he does.

The Mark you mentioned- is that "illleavethelightonferya?" Mark I met in Atlanta?

edie the curious goddess Yeah Edie, I know that there are probably circumstances behind what johnny posted just like there are circumstances behind what I posted. It was the manner in which he posted that got my goat. His profile had him on the Grumble for just under 2 years and I guess for him to presume that I had no background in paying rent or handling all those "professional" type business things rubbed me the wrong way.

And I am a bit cranky just getting over some illness that I didn't ask for. I make a really lousy patient and I don't feel social when I am sick so I guess some of that is flaking off onto my posts. I apologize.

And, yes, that was the same Mark. He was on the Grumble as Markg1 and I miss him very much since he closed his business and went back to his earlier job. That area of So. IL is so economically depressed that it ranks #1 in the state as the poorest poverty county. I am glad I had the foresight to sell out and leave the area when I had the chance. I still yearn for my lakeside farm and the quiet and solitude of the country but that is gone and I am on with my life and down here in Paradise growing old and wise?!?

(That reminds me of an old Amish saying from my childhood, "We grow too soon old and too late smart." That's a close translation from Deutsch.)

FGII

Edit: Oh, and did I mention, Mark and his dad were both based at his dad's home. His dad built their frameshop years ago and Mark took over operating it at the same location after his dad passed away. And his dad WAS a professional framer.

[ 05-11-2006, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Framerguy ]

AllisonA.

May 11th, 2006, 08:34 PM

Thank you framerguy for the wonderful defense of home based framers. It has been pointed out many times before that there are several different types of home based framers. Our shop is located in our barn just like many other grumblers. It is allowed under the zoning laws. For this discussion I believe we all agree that home based framers that are skirting local laws should not be supplied by our vendors.
It is laughable when store front operators say that home based framers have no overhead. Paying rent is not a badge of honor. Try renovating a 150 year old barn some day and you will realize it costs tens of thousands of dollars to do so plus a lot of sweat equity. The property was also more expensive because it did have a barn on it. We have separate electric and phone lines to the barn. We do not have the advantage of getting walk ins and few drive byes, so marketing is a crucial. We do have many challenges just like store fronts it is just that the challenges are different. I believe the vendors are professional enough to see who is a serious retail operation regardless of their location.
Allison Abreu
The Swallow's Nest

Framerguy

May 11th, 2006, 08:57 PM

Like I said earlier, Allison, most times people will jump in without thinking or knowing the circumstances behind another person's situation. All they wind up doing is making an *** out of themselves and accomplishing little in adding constructively to the subject at hand.

And, in the end, it really doesn't matter whether they had a personal issue in the discussion or not, they have managed to embarass others who DO know what background some of the leaders of this framing forum have and most times the real point of the issue blows over their heads because they are too wrapped up in trying to make somebody else look bad.

I don't particularly like it and I am ornery enough to stand up and say what I think and take my chances.

Oh, and thank you for the compliment. I am also experienced enough to understand the difference between a homebased professional framer and what we used to call a "basement" framer, one who buys junk, builds junk, and charges for junk. There IS a definite difference and I am not defending the latter in any way. But that should have been a given.

FGII

Edit: And my apologies to anyone who is professionally framing out of their home and happens to have their shop down in the basement. That was meant as a figure of speech rather than a bash on a particular section of a house. I guess we could have called them "kitchen" framers as well.

Jack Cee

May 11th, 2006, 09:29 PM

A bunch of years ago, I told a Rep. from Victor Moulding that I had spent $15,000.00 on equipment during the last 12 months. Two day later a Rep. appeared at my home with a catalog in hand and a customer number and on bended knee asked me to buy from them. I did and was happy with them for several years. Maybe that is why they are no longer in business.

Jack Cee

Jay H

May 11th, 2006, 09:42 PM

The absolute best recording studio I have ever been in was in a barn on the backside of a farm. It was about the same age as the one you speak of Allison. It had a living quarters for the band. It came with an on call tech guaranteed to be ready to record when the band was. It fetched a sum measured in the thousands per day.

Without question it is in the vast minority for "home recording studios".

I don't think companies should have general across-the-board rules like a commercial storefront. However if they aren't going to handle each shop on a case by case basis, I'm glad they draw some line even if it’s a bad one.

There are plenty of vendors that ask for information like sq./ft, items carried, trade references, pictures, etc. I think that was the information that the original poster wanted to know. Maybe for a different reason, or not, I would like to know who these companies are as well.

Ron Eggers

May 11th, 2006, 09:54 PM

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "vast minority" before.

Jay H

May 11th, 2006, 09:57 PM

There is a reason why I have Capt. proof my published writings.

MerpsMom

May 11th, 2006, 11:46 PM

Let's call those basement folks Garden Level framers: seems so much more genteel.

BUDDY

May 12th, 2006, 11:15 AM

Lets all establish some hard a real facts about this issue despite their not being the ones originally asked .

First the LEGAL requirements for operating a business are very different in a lot of different geographical regions.so saying what is required based on what is in your neighborhood maybe so wrong it shouldn't even be mentioned.

Next; many suppliers do service HB and those that don't according to their stated policy make exceptions. In fact one i know of leaves it up to the individual REP so unless you have asked why you aren't being served and tried to show where they are wrong you may be missing your chance.

And those who have a problem with the fact that HB can and sometimes do undercut the prices of SF shops because of lower overhead ,need to consider if they want price fixing ? I mean not everyone has the same overhead even in SF so if they pass along the savings should they be forced to raise their prices to meet yours?( This is despite the "Leaving Money On the table" lessons taught by some business people).We all can choose what we feel is fair while still making a profit and they aren't all the same amounts.

The only Violations are when Shop owners ( HB or SF) don't obey Laws, regulations and fail to pay Taxes ,licensing fees etc. or when servicing their locations can cause the same sort of problems for a supplier.

We all choose where we operate and cost of operation and convenience plays a large part in it's choice ( HB OR SF)

A slightly different angle might be for the SF to consider if they are expecting too much profit or if they have an overinflated opinion of their products worth .But if all this legal and regulatory and tax issues are equal then where you operate is your choice ( even if you have to forgo the service of some vendors).

It would also be wise to remeber that not everyone started out with the same capital and some of the lowest backed shops are now among the most successful, and produce Frames that are just as nice as any other.

When the **** are we all going to learn that there are no ELITEST ways of doing Framing? We all in this together.
BUDDY

May 12th, 2006, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by BUDDY:
( HB or SF) don't obey Laws,....choice ( HB OR SF)

A slightly BUDDY Hey - How did I (HB) get dragged into this!

Just to clear things up - Just because I am HB doesn't mean I am HB. (Home Based) - I'm not!

jofinneg

May 12th, 2006, 11:58 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to stir up a debate. As I've been reading through the archives, I believe that I've seen this very argument pop up a few times.

Anyway, reading between the lines, I think the original question was answered - that it's entirely subjective and based on a case-by-case basis.

I do appreciate the impassioned responses though, and I really look forward to getting this business up and running.

John

Jerry Ervin

May 12th, 2006, 12:14 PM

Look at all the #### a simple question has rendered.

Most framers start out as home based I would think. Heck, even Jay Goltz started in his parents basement. Look at him now.

I started out home based over 14 years ago.

Having said that, I dropped a supplier not long ago because they were delivering to a garage framer a couple of miles from my store. He is positioned directly between me and my biggest competitor. I did not want my customers to be able to price compare me with a garage framer that marks up moulding 2 times length cost. Those samples are in the dumpster and gone. I was purchasing approximately $500 per week from this company and the garage framer had trouble making the $50 minimum some weeks.

Should that supplier have sold to home based? The choice was theirs to make. Should I buy from that supplier? That choice was mine to make.

See how this can be a mixed bag reaction issue for some people.

nona powers

May 12th, 2006, 12:57 PM

One needs to be careful what one condemns. A friend of mine, we were friendly competitors for years, hated, despised, condemned, bad mouthed "home” based framers. She now is one. (How's that for good English?)

B. Newman

May 12th, 2006, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by nona powers:
She now is one. (How's that for good English?) That's supposed to be "Now she r one..." tongue.gif

Paul N

May 12th, 2006, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by nona powers:
She now is one. (How's that for good English?) It should be:

She is one now.

Sounds better, doesn't it??

Jay H

May 12th, 2006, 01:34 PM

Buddy, I can't speak for anybody else by my opposition has nothing to do with permits, licenses, location, law, taxes, or markups.

My opposition is simply that if a framer isn’t a retail store, they shouldn't be paying wholesale!

That’s like calling Bayliner and telling them that you’re a marina. Call a food wholesaler and tell them that you're a restaurant needing steaks. You could call Whirlpool and tell them that you’re an appliance store. No matter which of those places you call, you most likely will not get wholesale pricing.

What makes this industry any different?

I think it's a safe assumption that Outback would suffer unfairly if their wholesaler sold me the same steaks they buy .99 lb. and deliver right to the door. Demanding that that vendors only sell to other restaurants isn’t elitist. It’s common sense.

So rather your in a home, barn, mall, or airplane hangar, the question to me is, “are you a business or not.” Now my generalization is that many working out of their garage is not and shouldn’t be receiving materials at wholesale.

SkyKing

May 12th, 2006, 02:05 PM

OMEGA - GREAT SERVICE - GREAT VALUE - ALWAYS IN STOCK!THESE GUYS HAVE AN INCREDIBLE INVENTOR OF MOULDINGS. YOU HOME BASED BIZ WILL GROW WITH OMEGA. OMEGA'S THINKING IS GOOD, THEY FEEL THAT DEALING WITH THE HOME BASED BUSINESS WILL HELPP SPPED UP THE PROCESS OF THAT HOME BASED BIZ GETTING BIGGER FASTER!

Paul N

May 12th, 2006, 02:14 PM

Do you work for Omega, by chance?

And Captain English would tell you that Fiji is spelled and written with a "J" not a "G"... ;)

Bob Carter

May 12th, 2006, 02:28 PM

I think every business has a right to establish standards. To whom they wish to sell ought to be their privilege.

Most every industry has standards as Jay suggests.

I do not work for Omega but absolutely agree with Sky's comments on their quality, price and in stock. Every year we give an award for that Vendor that did the best job for us

The 2005 Vendor was Omega

Paul N

May 12th, 2006, 02:43 PM

Bill:

I agree about Omega, they are really reliable and their price / quality comparison is great.

I was just wondering if Skyking was an Omega rep...

BUDDY

May 12th, 2006, 03:24 PM

Jay I am trying hard to understand your complaint ,but when you said,"isn’t a retail store, they shouldn't be paying wholesale!" what does the location from which anyone chooses to operate their RETAIL outlet ( Assumeing they find a way to comply with all "permits, licenses, location, law, taxes, or markups." you say the question has NOTHING to do with????) have to do with wether or not they are actually RETAIL?

If I understand you correctly any one ( of which there are many in this area.At one time my wife's Grandparents ran a bar that they lived above)Operates a Retail Business of any kind which also serves as their 'HOME BASE'or living accomadations they souldn't receive wholesale priceing.Is that correct? If so Jay Goltz and Rob Markoff both violated your description of a RETAIL outlet and shouldn't have been given wholesale pricing. I remember Rob saying when things got tough in his beginniing he moved into his shop to save the rent. Now I hear Jay Goltz operated out of a family members's home which he didn't even own .So why shouldn't they have been refused? I mentioned my wife's family since here in New Orleans it is extremly common and has been for centuries to have shops either down stairs from or in front of a host of RETAIL BUSINESSES. Would you have all of these refused wholesale because they happened to live in the same building?

But you are not alone with what I feel are DOUBLE STANDARDS and a total forgetting of where we came from,Jerry now states that even though he started the biz as a HB( no reference to the screen name ) he now doesn't wish to grant some one else that same privalige.How soon we forget from wence we came.

Maybe it isn't what is fair or even legal that some are concerned with but how to gain an advatge over those upstarts who may become just as sucessfull as we are? Or maybe even worse we are afraid of even ,an level field competition? After all what we spend our miney on for overhead is our chooseing and at any time we could do just what they are couldn't we? I think I remember Rob Markoff closeing a shop because he said his wife could do the same volume from her desk at home with out the high cost of rent.Should all the vendors drop Rob and his wife from the wholesale sales? I bet they don't and shouldn't. So maybe we are the ones who need to reconsider how e do our business and how we compete?
BUDDY

J Phipps TN

May 12th, 2006, 03:26 PM

smile.gif I think every wholesale company should make a clear decision on who they will sell to and then we can make Our decision from whom we will be buying.

I love Omega, but if that is what the guy down the street, in his basment, has for half the price, I won't be buying from them. I will be buying from Larson Juhl who chooses not to sell to him.

That is just a good business decision. So our leason for the day is that from now on we need to ask before buying!

I'm glad there are companies that sell to HB :D (I may be one one day) and I am glad there are ones that don't! :D (since I am a retailer right now)

Everybody happy now? graemlins/beer.gif

Did we ever get a list of the ones that do and don't? I beleive that was the original question. graemlins/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Jay H

May 12th, 2006, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by BUDDY:
...what does the location from which anyone chooses to operate their RETAIL outlet have to do with wether or not they are actually RETAIL?

It doesn't.

They can sell to whom they wish. I can buy from whom I wish. This is really just one factor to me. It’s certainly not a primary factor.

In a dream world, I think the supplier should send a rep. If I were a rep, I would look at their business cards, sign, parking, credit cards they accept, inventory, decor, and things like that to determine if this is a legit business or a hobbyist looking for cheap framing. Missing from that list is "type of building".

MerpsMom

May 12th, 2006, 03:35 PM

Isn't the point "retail"? If the meat is being resold at someone's idea of retail, then the basement meat-vendor is probably conforming to Jay's parameters?? (as long as he has his license, pays his business taxes like sales tax, and meets his Health Department meat-storage and handling codes.) If the guy's eating it, then he isn't a retailer, no matter what he sells it for. Yeah, I know, if he's eating it, he's not selling it. But he could be selling low to family. smile.gif

BUDDY

May 12th, 2006, 06:22 PM

Cathie I fully understand that there are some who claim to be retail and even lie about what regs they meet. But there in lies the rub they don't comply with "( as long as he has his license, pays his business taxes like sales tax, and meets his Health Department meat-storage and handling codes.)In your own words.

But if they do despite Jay and some others saying" my opposition has nothing to do with permits, licenses, location, law, taxes, or markups. " It actually does. Because if the other guy does all that but operates out of his house he is a RETAILER and the problem is someone doesn't want to compete with him because he may be able to sell for less of a margin and still make as much as we do. But then if some of us SF people buy in bulk or make special deals ,or maybe has many propert /realestae holdings for which he doesn't have any mortages,they can do much the same thing and no one has a problem with that. So are we sighting a bit a false dilemma based on a double standard?
BUDDY

Jay H

May 12th, 2006, 10:38 PM

I'm sure there are plenty of really nice storefronts that don't have the proper permits, licenses, taxes, or markups. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

BUDDY

May 13th, 2006, 01:04 AM

Jay ,Those "NICE STOREFRONTS"other than their MARKUP proceedures are in violation of the law as I understand it and as such can be in jeproady of being driven out of business and not being allowed to buy from any wholesale vendors. However to answer your hypothisis; if they don't comply just as the HB that may not ,THESE are the shops that shouldn't be allowed to buy at wholesale (IMHO). It shouldn't be those SF or HB that because of where or in what building they do their legal RETAIL business are denied FAIR TRADE .

If a shop meets the legal requirements of being RETAIL and they are denied trade I think their may be a law against that.But then what do I know about doing business.

However I do expect to be treated as fairly as I treat others with no exclusions as to where we do our business.
BUDDY

Jay H

May 13th, 2006, 10:43 AM

Neither of my two main vendors is even located in this state. Yet they sell to me. How many resources would take for them to find out first what rules I am to follow and then if I have followed those rules?

Furthermore I would almost find them in contempt for prying if I found out there were doing that anyway. It’s none of their business if I am paying sales tax or if my bathrooms were handicap approved.

What they do have the resources to do is come visit my store. Meet me, see the store, and use the brain God gave them. If they are a reputable company, then they will want to do business with reputable companies. If they are a lesser company then they won't care if the mat cutter is sitting on top of the cat litter box that and located in the bed of a '76 Ford pickup that’s leaking oil onto the gravel floor of the pole barn.

If that is where your mat cutter is located then I don’t care what permits you have. You are not a real business and shouldn't be receiving supplies at wholesale.

Cornel never hesitates to ask some pretty uncomfortable questions. So maybe he wouldn't mind answering one. Do you think its important to know what type of shop you are selling to? Do you have any way to know when the shop’s fire extinguisher was last inspected or if they are behind with their sales taxes? Do you even care about that?

B. Newman

May 13th, 2006, 11:38 AM

So, is that the reason you made the trip off I-40, across Dumplin Valley Road, past Douglas Dam Road, down Kodak Road, to paved Newman Lane, to gravel road Newman Lane, down past the barn, around past the well to a building that isn't, but could have been, a barn - just to see if I am "real?"

Were you surprised that I was? Or did you expect to see that '76 Ford truck? Forget a 1976 model, Jay. That would be far too new for us. It'd be much more like the frame of a 1940's Farmall tractor. Or even a piece of early 1900's horse-drawn equipment.

I even have all my own teeth! (Well with some caps...)

I know you were being very facetious with the "pole barn" bit - but co'mon Jay. I know of 2 different "grumblers" who have built very nice businesses from barn structures.

Looks can be very deceiving as to who can, will, or ever intends to pay their bills - and that is with whom the vendor is concerned.

Framerguy

May 13th, 2006, 11:50 AM

Betty,

Forget it, my vertically challenged friend, you are whoopin' a blind horse around that track!

We of the "old corps" know who you are and what you stand for and I am here to tell you wholeheartedly that, were the chips down for a few framers and you were in the middle of them, no matter how fancy their storefront or how much money they had in their pockets, I would be there for you and YOUR family first. That, my country friend, is how FRAMERGUY does business.

I have respect for my friends and I honor what you are doing for the framing field and for me. I hope to visit your shop some day and you can rest assured it won't be to ridicule your base of operations or to condemn your suppliers. It will probably include some learning on my part.

These are my own personal feelings about my friend and don't have a hoot to do with anyone else or how they do things in their world.

Framerguy

Jay H

May 13th, 2006, 11:53 AM

Of coarse they do Betty. Thats why if you want to carry LJ, they should send a rep. They shouldn't have some silly "no homebaised framers" rule.

However we have a framer here who has his matcutter on top of a his pool table next to the laundry (that is not a joke). He pays wholesale and doesn't even frame for weeks or months at a time. That is what I protest!

I came to visit you becasue I KNEW you didn't have your matcutter on a litter box. If I thought that, I wouldn't have waisted my time. Isn't the fact that I would take that trip proof that what your are an exception and not the rule?

Perhaps you could do like me FG and quit talking about her shop and go visit it.

I'm not belittling what anybody does. I am protesting those that don't have an ounce of perfessionalism in their body and wants a "work around" to get wholesale products. Those types of people hurt our entire industry. Those types of people opperate in all kinds of settings (including their homes). Anybody that hasn't gotten that yet either doesn't want to, hasn't actually read my post, or just has a different agenda altogether.

Bob Carter

May 13th, 2006, 02:07 PM

It's always unfortunate when these arguments that none of us can do much about have to turn so personal

Jay is a good guy and we all know his posts and a lot of his personality. He doesn't need to have this issue so trivialized as to make it a him against another framer. He has a right to have his opinion that is shared by many; but, most importantly, by a major supplier whose mind we are not about to change

This argument gets drug out and beaten down so often

For those that feel so strongly as to make it a personal attack, may I suggest that the ire be taken to it's root. Don't support the offender.

Jay isn't the villain here anymore than any framers are the victim

B. Newman

May 13th, 2006, 02:17 PM

You are right, Bob, and I apologize.

No justifying or rationalizing what I said; no "I had this going on over here"; and no "but I meant..." - just pure and simple - I was wrong and I apologize.

Period.

AllisonA.

May 13th, 2006, 02:42 PM

Bob is right that this topic does get too personal. We all agree with Jay that someone who is not a professional framer should not be getting wholesale prices from the vendors. If I understand him correctly it does not matter where your location is, you could be a retail store selling ice cream with a mat cutter in the back selling frames once a year, that person should not be getting wholesale prices.

It is semantics, when the broad brush of "home based framers" is used here in a negative way we legitimate home based framers get defensive. Perhaps we should just ignore it and realize that when the term is used it is in reference to the matcutter on top of the kitty litter situation. If a different term could be used that would be great but we all probably could not agree on it.

To those who drop vendors because they perceive them as selling to home based framers I would suggest you may rethink that position, from a purely business point of view. If you do not have a moulding that a home based framer has and a customer comes into your shop looking for that moulding that customer is going to wonder why they have more choice with a home based framer. The perception is that a retail store front should have more selection and the customer will not give one whit as to the ethics of wholesale vendors. The better route in my opinion is to talk to your rep and explain that based on your volume that you should get better pricing than the home based framer. Then use Bob's advice and turn a buying advantage into a selling advantage and put that home based framer out of business. Then again I am just a home based framer so what do I know.

Allison Abreu
The Swallow's Nest

framah

May 13th, 2006, 02:57 PM

How about calling them "back alley framers" ?? I'm sure that won't offend any legitimate framers out there. graemlins/beer.gif

Jim Miller

May 13th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Jay H:
I'm sure there are plenty of really nice storefronts that don't have the proper permits, licenses, taxes, or markups. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I doubt that a storefront framer could get away with dodging any paperwork, Jay. For one thing, in most municipalities a building inspector has to approve the buildout and facilities before the occupancy permit is activated. Verifying proper business set up is usually a routine part of that process.

Markups are a different matter. There's no law dictating that a business has to make a profit, as far as I know.

johnny

May 13th, 2006, 04:29 PM

Sorry, I've not been able to sit at a computer for a while.

Framerguy, I apologize. I read your initial post again and I didn't address your post properly. You said not to lump all home framers in one basket and I went right past that and stated why I refuse to support distributors that support home framers.

My reasons are very real though. I've learned how to stop creating my own competition, as much as it's possible. There are legal agreements. There is protecting my mailing list. And there is protecting my suppliers. I'm not going to buy from someone who will sell to an employee out of their home, period. They may sell to scores of people who didn't steal their employers customer lists and supplier contacts, but I still can't support them. I look in the newspaper and see that the only galleries listed in the art show list are those run by people who used to work here. And each of them sold to their own new customers and my previous customers (or at least tried to) out of their homes first. To the distributors who sold to them: Die! Die! Die! That's my take on it. It's not an answer to your post and shouldn't have been presented as such.

Betty, I wasn't! Unless you used to work for a framer and took his customer list and made a quick call to Nielsen before you left so he had a nice present of $7000 worth of length in his back door, so to speak. But, somehow, I don't see you ever doing that. I know you wouldn't, I can tell from your posts. And I apologize to you too if I offended.

Over the course of time you may employ a lot of people, and the vast majority of them will be really great. Eventually it's time to move on. Some people move on with ambition to have their own start-up. At that point, you have to decide if it's worth setting yourself up in a situation where you've trained your competition, given them a customer resource, and given them a supplier resource. From now on, if they want to sell exactly what I sell, art as well as framing, they'll have to do it from a retail location. And then if it's too close to me, well, we're on an equal footing. I can beat them. I can't put a shop next door to their home.

Basically, I'm saying that there is a real reason to dislike distributors that sell to homes, and that reason goes beyond an elitist view of retailers over home-based. And if you haven't had reason to appreciate it yet, if you're a retailer it will one day make itself real apparent.

Hi Edie. smile.gif

Tim Hayes.

May 13th, 2006, 04:44 PM

How about calling a cab and moving this overworked devisive thread outta here.

Paul N

May 13th, 2006, 04:44 PM

Johnny:

Maybe it is time then for shops that employ more than one employee with potential (potential of becoming your competition) to sign a non-compete agreement.

Many companies (not necessarily dealing with art or framing) will do just that. If you want the job, you will sign a non-compete agreement that says that for a period of X years you cannot work / start a similar business within X number of miles from current location.

Is it legal and will it stand in court? It seems so, if it is not extremely prohibitive as to prevent somebody form earning a living or make them homeless. Those companies that have such agreements have legal council that formulated the agreements so they pass muster.

johnny

May 13th, 2006, 04:49 PM

I highly recommend that, Paul. Mine cost about $150 to have worked up, consistent with the laws in Ohio. I've been using it for 10 years, however those who were hired before that aren't/weren't covered by it. Getting it drawn up was the incredibly cheap part of my incredibly expensive learning process.

AllisonA.

May 13th, 2006, 04:52 PM

Johnny, why stop with the distributors. Do you stop doing business with the phone company because they have given a business line to the home based framer. Stop doing business with the yellow pages because they put a home based framer in the book. Stop doing business with the newspaper because they put an ad for a home based framer. Dont take Visa because they let the home based framer use it. The list goes on and on.

It seems your anger is more directed at employees that leave to compete, and do so unfairly. A home based framer and a retail store front are not on equal footing. A retail location has many advantages over a home based framer, as everyone here always state location, location, location. The only advantage for the home based is lack of rent which as I stated above is not that much of an advantage.

Allison Abreu
The Swallow's Nest

johnny

May 13th, 2006, 05:00 PM

Well, that's just my view - my side of this particular issue. I don't expect everyone to agree. I feel a bad sarcasm-attack coming on so I'm gunna go get back to work. smile.gif

p.s. I've done the newspaper one, hehe graemlins/shutup.gif It was more complicated than that though.

BUDDY

May 13th, 2006, 06:30 PM

This thread has gone full circle .It started with not wanting some to operate out of non-storefronts to storefronts they really aren't retailers to the real problem what do you do when you find yourself competing with someone who has a decided edge on you. The consensus opinion is that Vendors should refuse to sell to them and that they should do this based on an inspection trip from their REPS.

I find this a bit amusing since many of the thread here on TFG are about how seldom REPS call on legal retail Frame shops but the initial trip should be good enough. I wonder is that trip unannounced. LOL( as are most calls)

Actually My solution was very similar with one large exception( well maybe two) First unlike the unfair spin it was given, my Licence and laws ,taxes and regulations theory that was given has nothing to do with whether your fire extinguisher is valid or other such trivia. But whether you meet all the requirements of your local municipalities for operating a RETAIL outlet. And before any one spins that I already said some lie and cover up the truth about that. So where does that leave us? It is up to YOU to report any Violators of those retail regulations and Tax codes. And yes that may require your name to be attached to the citation that causes the investigation. So if you are wrong or just causing trouble you could be the recipiant instead of the plaintiff.

But to expect someone else to solve your problems with unfair competition especially a rep who we already said may not call on even you in months or the vendor who is in another state is just IMHO shifting YOUR responsibility. After all YOU are the one BITCHING aren't you?

I have checked on a shop because of application to our PPFA chapter ( I think I already mentioned this) when I did the authorities wanted MY name and why I thought the other guy was in violation. I didn't have to follow through but I know of a friend that operated a silk screening shop from his home and the authorities did come out to his home two or three times based on complaints form SF competitors and they did have to formally file a complaint. And to the best of my knowledge their investigation ( though unfounded) didn't constitute any invasion of privacy's ,since this is what they do and what the shop owner needed certification to prove and when found erroneous the complainant was told and their identity was withheld.

So if you think someone HB or SF or faking either, is not a valid RETAIL outlet and in this area if they aren't complying with residential and commercial ZONEING codes take it upon yourself and REPORT THEM to the proper Municipal authority and don't count on your vendor who may be trying to make every BUCK they can and who may have a totally different set of criteria for who they do business with.

But if who ever you report meets the RETAIL standards find another way to compete other than asking your vendors to boycott them so they will close up.

After all there are some very valid RETAIL shops we all wish would close their doors but we have to learn to compete and live with them as they do us.

Now I can't wait to see how this comment is spun around ?
BUDDY

scottk

May 15th, 2006, 10:01 AM

Jennifer: Don't think for a moment that LJ doesn't sell to home based framers. Doug is absolutely correct. They will sell to home based, high volume frame operators because the money is there, as are the volume discounts they offer to storefront operations.

Jerry Ervin

May 15th, 2006, 11:43 AM

I guess the answer to the original question is none

Everyone sells to everyone.

I'm going to call GM later today to see if my business license qualifies me to purchase a new pickup truck at wholesale. Maybe they will even wave the shipping charges.

Jay H

May 15th, 2006, 11:48 AM

Jerry, you might want to make sure your bathroom is handicapped approved and that you have paid last quarters sales taxes before you do that. If so, then they have no reason to not send you a new truck.

GUMBY, GCF

May 15th, 2006, 03:46 PM

I think if they are lic., advertise framing and conform to their local zoning for all intentional purposes they are legit and it then would be up to each supplier!~
Since we also sell art supplies we have been losing matboard, glass, & frame customers (Fine artists, architechs, & commercial artists) to a couple suppliers!~ They know who they are!~ We are not happy and have been moving sales away from them!~ As soon as we can get replacement suppliers in place we will be using them only for urgent fill in if that!~
As stated before they have a right to sell to whom and where, Just as we all have the right to buy from whom or where!~

No sour grapes!~ Just ask they will tell you it is just business and if you think it is anything but that ask Vivian Kistler, Jay G., B. Carter, Warren Buffet.
Remember they get you to buy on emotion, but sell you on business principals!~
It is all about profit without it they are not in business>>>>>

Take what you want and leave the rest!~

Tim Hayes.

May 15th, 2006, 04:20 PM

Agree to disagree ???

Get out the dead horse and beat it some more ???

May 16th, 2006, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by jofinneg:
Hi there,
Before I get into ordering catalogs and samples, could anyone please tell me any companies that definitely don't deal with home-based startup framing operations.
So far I've got:
Larson-Juhl

Any others that you can think of (and please tell me that I can buy from Roma)?
Thanks,

John ....Just in case someone missed it!

J Phipps TN

May 16th, 2006, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by scottk:
Jennifer: Don't think for a moment that LJ doesn't sell to home based framers. Doug is absolutely correct. They will sell to home based, high volume frame operators because the money is there, as are the volume discounts they offer to storefront operations. They haven't around here. As a matter of fact, the photographer up the street has worked out of her home for years and is very successful. She use to sell Larson-Juhl framing and when the company made the decision not to sell to homebaser, she was sent a letter and cut off.
She hates them to this day, but comes to me to buy their stuff retail. She even has a show room for her sales but it is not a Storefront.
They wouldn't budge and I'm glad. I wish more would do that.

I'm not saying all, but just the higher end guys!

trofeo

May 16th, 2006, 10:48 PM

I started out having a business in my basement while I was looking for a retail location, and I found that people didn't respond well to that idea. (I designed in their homes.. did the work in the house.. so they didn't have to come to the basement workshop..) Maybe if I'd had a nice garage or carriage house out back i wouldn't have rented my space, and maybe I'd be making money by now without the huge overhead.. hummmmm...
But.. oh well... We'll never know.. But I do think that there shold be advantages to both scenarios, and I'm sure there are.. Larson can't be the ONLY advantage for us suckers..
In a perfect world, the honor system works, and we'd all charge around the same price for equal service/product. BUT, the ones who steal mailing lists, and undercut their friends and fellow framers, or take advantage of old bosses will catch the BAD KARMA somewhere along their journey... some one will do it to them!!!
What happened to Johnny.. "...50% less, just down the street... ", and from an old customer!!!!! Well, that just makes me cry...
I'm crying now...
:(
* sniff *

johnny

June 9th, 2006, 04:14 PM

Oh, I shouldn't bump this thread. I know. I'm just so aggravated.

New phone books were just delivered. I'm not in it. You have to PAY to be in it at all, which is just wrong. I paid to be in it. I wrote a check for $400. The county line is just a mile down the road here. I'm in the book for the other side of the line, as it turns out. Paid to be in that one. Here, where my physical location is, I figured I'd get listed with no bells and whistles. No block ad, no bold. But, as it turns out, they don't do that anymore. You have to pay.

Yaknow who is listed in the yellow pages section? A local wholesaler-distributor. It's not like they do retail. In fact, I've also seen them in Decor and ABN. They paid to advertise to retail customers around my store. Now, tell me. Why in the heck should I even consider for a moment putting one dollar of business through their company. Forget they have sold to previous employees out of their homes. Forget they have sold to a group of my customers who decided to "co-op" out of their homes. Just on the basis of the ad alone, why in the heck should I want anything to do with them except for wishing a termite plague on their warehouse? Die. Die. Die. I can't believe any framer in town would spend $1 with them.