Own a business or work for one?

[billrobertstudios]

Greetings!

So I retired from the Navy after about 26 years.

I bought a framing business (liguidated assets) about 10 year ago and used it for my own and my artist wife's framing... and somewhat on a part-time basis for others.

My equipment is in storage in California with my household goods. I have moved to Georgia.

What do you folks think? Should I go to work for someone (I have no idea how much a "framer" makes) or should I go for broke and set up the equipment in a store-front or maybe at home?

Could anyone share how much money you make as a framing business owner (one-man) vs. working as a framer for someone else?

If I have chopper, joiner, mat cutter, and asundry framing tools already, what would an expected start-up cost range be?

Thanks for sharing any info.

Bill Roberts

[EllenAtHowards]

Of course I know NOTHING of businesses in Hawaii, so I will give you my totally useless opinion.
If you need to make a living off this business, this might not be a really great idea. But you have your retirement, CHAMPUS for health care (no idea how this works any more; got out about 30 years ago and no longer have access to this) so I am thinking you are pretty well covered for the harshest necessities. So this might be a really great idea! Make the old Pros & Cons list and see what shakes out. If you know framing, you will be a useful person to hire. If you were in Western Maryland I'd pay you about $10-$12 per hour including health care. Who knows what you are worth in Hawaii? "Oh, thank you, Ellen, for such a useless post"

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by EllenAtHowards:
"Oh, thank you, Ellen, for such a useless post" Especially since he's moved to Georgia!

There are owners and there are employees. I've been self-employed so long that I think I'm "hard-core unemployable!" Don't know that I could follow directions very well now...

But as for compensation, at least in the beginning in most instances, you'll make much more as an employee.

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by B. Newman:
I've been self-employed so long that I think I'm "hard-core unemployable!" Don't know that I could follow directions very well now...

I know the feeling!

[FramerRandy]

Hi Bill,
If you do your own thing, I wouldn't count on any income for the first couple of years. If you can do that, you have a chance of succeeding.
For me, that was a good way of getting the business launched. I poured everything back in the first couple of years, and then some. Now, past the four year mark, I take some home
;)
If you need income to supplement retirement, then you need to work for someone. Either way good luck in Georgia graemlins/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

[JbNormandog]

If you never framed or took classes I would start out working for someone else. You will learn and get paid for your time.

There is so much more to it than just cutting this or fitting that.

Working in a shop gives you the practical everyday view of taking in the crazy jobs and will also give you (hopefully) some leads on supliers and contacts in your new area.

After 6 months or so you will have a more stable base to take off from and some real world framing experience.

At the very least take a course and network and use this forum for it's great wealth of knowledge.

Best of luck to you and whatever you decide.

[Ron Eggers]

So I retired from the Navy after about 26 years.
What a coincidence, Bill! I retired from framing (more-or-less) after 26 years. Maybe I should join the navy.

Don't expect that anyone on The Grumble is going to come on here and tell horror stories about self-employment. That would be sacrilegious. You need to take everything with a grain-of-salt and make your own decisions.

That was at least as helpful as Ellen's post.

[Bob Carter]

A common post we see often is there seems to be some "mandatory" two to three year period in which you may not expect any income.

If that is the case, why would anyone ever not work for someone else?

There has to be others that earned a paycheck from the get-go, haven't there?

But, if it were two or three years, than I would certainly opt for employment. I mean, if you had the resources to self-fund your life style for that long, leave that money in the bank (or market) and start drawing a paycheck.

Of course, if you have a well executed plan in which you see dividends a little more quickly, then file this post right next to Ellen's

[gemsmom]

If you are serious about gong into business, why not attend the Decor Expo in Atlanta? You seem to be close enough. Go to decor-expo.com and check it out. There are probably seminars which could be useful to someone like yourself.

[Julia]

Bill:
I believe there is a woman by the name of Arlene Kosack who lives in Cumming and has a frame shop. If I remember correctly, she either posts on this forum or on the Hitchhikers. Might be a resource for you. I agree with Pamela-attend the show since you are so close.
Julia

[framinzfun]

Maybe you could start out working for a small frame shop to get a feel for operations and learn some do's and don'ts that go along with owning a small framing business (try to find a job working for someone who is a 'good' business owner, I've worked for good and bad owners and prefer the good ones, although you do learn some stuff from the bad ones).

PS Thank you for your service in the Navy
graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[JRB]

"No guts, no glory."

John

[Maria Nucci Designs]

Bill,

Well, you're starting a new venture. I agree with the advice to go to trade shows. Whether it's walking the floor or taking classes, you'll learn a lot.

Working for someone is great experience in the real life sense. You may have been framing for a while, but a retail busines, is a different animal.

The $10-12 range (with benefits) is probably about right for a good framer, entry level, in Atlanta.

Regarding start up costs for a shop of your own... It can vary wildly. You may lease a space, or use your home (requiring more marketing.) You'll need to do a great deal of cost analysis on your own regarding the area.

There are so many versions of a "frame shop", it's hard to compare start up costs.

I agree with Bob Carter. Starting a new business need NOT mean you are without a salary for any mandatory period of time.Taking no salary is a bad precedent to establish. Build it into your plan!!

Take that plan, meet with a good accountant, and establish goals and a break-even point.

Accountants are our friends. (wink wink)

[JRB]

Lets just turn this into an exercise in futility, lets plan and think it to death.

You have the equipment, just rent a small affordable shop and get started. If you are any good at what you do, and you love the craft, the money will come.

You can learn as you go, you can go to trade shows, read books, etc. By renting an affordable shop you will not be buried in debt before you even start.

If you put out a good product and you price it properly, you can move up to a bigger operation from your profits.

I know this is going to astound and anger a whole lot of grumblers, you do not really NEED a business plan.

You are a craftsman, not some huge retail operation. How many gardeners, house painters, plumbers, etc., started with a business plan? Perhaps when you are ready to expand into a bigger and better location a business plan will become a necessity, not at this point though.

Think about your initial question, Can I make more money owning a business, or working for someone else?

If making money is your point, your in the wrong field completely. Use your government benefits and spend the next four years in law school. If enjoying what is left of your life is important to you, then open a small framing shop.

If you are planning on thinking it to death, just go and get a job somewhere, save yourself a bunch of time and anguish.

To answer your question, the answer is .........NO, you can not make more money working for someone else. What you will have is security, and since you had to ask the question, that is what you are probably after in the first place.

John

[Candy]

I make more money working for someone else than I did working for myself.

[Julia]

"I know this is going to astound and anger a whole lot of grumblers, you do not really NEED a business plan."
John:
May I ask at what point you did write a business plan? Just curious how you have made this work for your particular situation. I found the exercise absolutely essential prior to opening our business. I also re-write the business plan each year to reflect changes in the market and the industry.
Thank you for your response,
Julia

[JRB]

Julia, I started my business in 1976. I have NEVER written a business plan. I have to admit, around twenty five years ago, I did have my CPA draw one up for SBA loan purposes. I never got the loan.

About a year later I just walked into a small bank, introduced myself to the CEO, chatted for a little over an hour, left with a large line of credit. I used it to expand my business and put a down payment on my house.

I would not even know how to start writing a business plan. I quit school and went to work about half way through the tenth grade. I just don't have a clue how you are SUPPOSED to run a business.

It is pretty much they way I have always run my life, blundering through it like a drunken elephant in a china shop. Seems to work just fine for me. As a side note, I do not drink alcohol or spirits.

I am proud to be able to respond to your question, do you have any others?

John

[Bob Carter]

Julia-My friend, John, is not alone in his methods. And, please appreciate that several like him really have some great experience that guides him through the murky waters. He knows what he needs and he knows what he wants.

His needs are not unique, but really do represent s diminishing number. Let's face it: Not that many years ago, it really was pretty easy to make a living at this gig.

Today, the landscape is completely changed and we are competiting against retailers that are so gifted and so well-resourced, that if you plan on a long term future, a plan is a well suggested idea.

Trust me, John will ride out his trail quite well.

The rest of most of us?

We need to get better and better at our game. The competition is not resting

[Julia]

Bob:
I most certainly can appreciate and admire a gentleman who can maintain, and be successful at, a business since 1976. I can only trust the efforts we put forth will result in the same! May I ask what you mean by his needs are not unique?
John:
You must have some clue about running a business since you have made it work since 1976!
Your point of visiting the bank and meeting with the CEO brought up a great point. I strongly believe that meeting face to face will more often than not bring you desired results. We did the same with a local bank here in Portland. If I may ask, do you have a retail location? Again, I appreciate your response.
Julia

[JRB]

Julia, yes, I have always had a retail location. My present store is a little over five thousand square feet. I am a firm believer in keeping home and business separate. A home is supposed to be your own private refuge. Business is where you earn your living, not where you live.

Before I started my own business I was a regional manager for Aaron Brothers Art Marts. I worked for that company for eleven years. Just because I can not understand a balance sheet, or write a business plan, does not mean I do not understand retail.

I have met more than a few, educated business "experts," who have failed miserably in their attempts at owning their own business's.

I will say this, I think I would have done a whole lot better over the years if I had gotten an education in business strategy and principals.

My military background set me up to be able to look any man in the eye, no matter what his station in life was. That has probably been my biggest asset in business.

John

[Bob Carter]

Sure, julia. And I mean to compliment John's perserverance, not question your post

When I suggest that his needs are not unique, I meean that not all framers are as mercenary as I am. To many, the ability to own and operate their own business, to do it their way is the greatest reward. Greater than the fastest cars, the nicest houses, the prettiest wives.

It took me awhile to understand this dynamic, but it is genuine and it is powerful

This is meant entirely as a compliment to those hard working framers that simply walk to a different beat

just as our businesses are different, so are our motivations. Like I said, it took me a while to appreciate that distinction

[Julia]

Bob:
I must take issue with your terminology "mercenary". "Guerilla" might be a better term (and I mean this with the utmost of respect)! Maybe if we adopted more of the "mercenary" attitude, independent custom picture framing businesses would be able to compete on a different, but successful, level with the dreaded BB's. I see your dedication to a successful business as a blueprint we should learn from and apply those strategies to our individual marketplaces.
John: I, too, have seen and worked with businesses that I have no idea how they succeed. My guess is they fly from the seat of their pants. Thank you for answering my questions. I have learned much from this exchange.
Oh, and Bob, I am one of those who wish for a fast car, nice house and I already have a gorgeous husband ;) Julia

[HB]

Bill

Though John says: "If making money is your point, your in the wrong field completely.", I am sure there are many who do very well, and a few who make real good money. Many lost lots too!
But, what is good money? and how much you make? That depends on you and your qualities, what you will put into it & what your market is like. We know none of that, and by the sounds of it, you probably don't either. But don't let us discourage you, we can give you our scope of things but you may be able to prove us wrong.

There is one truth you can't ignore though, in this business it's not simple or easy to make "good" money.

[JRB]

Money is a funny thing, no one knows what a "lot" is. Every persons take on that subject is different. There are CEOs of failing corporations who make well over a million or more dollars per year, who feel they are grossly underpaid, yet they do not even do their job.

There are hardworking folks who push a broom and are entirely happy with their lot in life.

I honestly feel you can make more money working for yourself, and I think I have. Yet Candy disagrees with me, she makes more working for the other guy.

Myself, I think you should find a job you enjoy doing, do the best you can, stick with it, be kind to animals, enjoy what you see in the mirror. Everything you deserve in life will come to you.

John