Latest BB ad in my area

[briank]

Michaels (art/craft/framing store) is advertising in a mailer among other things 50% off custome framing of one item, 60% off custom framing of two items, and GET THIS 70% off of three items or more! Cutting profit margins is one thing but this can't actualy net any kind of profit on 30% of retail. Or can it?

[EllenAtHowards]

Depends on what you call 'retail'... I told a customer I'd give him 70% off too, if he would only give me a moment to adjust the starting price...

[Emibub]

They have run that ad here a couple times already. Since their starting price is already very high I'm sure they are making something on the deal. I think the main purpose of the ad is to pull people away from Joann's though. Joann's Etc. came to town last fall with guns blazing at 60% off, so Michael's had to answer back. Michael's full price is so much higher than Joann's is, that has to be worrying them like it does me.

Joann's seems to have definitely had some sort of impact, I heard their latest store took in 400 orders on their opening weekend. The Joann's near where I live is right between Michael's and Hobby Lobby, all within a mile. That store is always packed full of people. It has to have hurt the other two. I think it has to have impacted us little guys too. The word on the street is that e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y is way down from last year.

I'm hoping they all have a big coupon war and they can all self implode for all I care.

[printmaker]

Originally posted by briank:
... 70% off of three items or more! Cutting profit margins is one thing but this can't actualy net any kind of profit on 30% of retail. Or can it? 70% off what? 30% of what?

Why not pay them a visit with three items (or more ;) ) and price them out? Let us know how it works out.

[Jay H]

We don't have a Michael’s here but we do have a hobby lobby. They are very reasonably priced and do not play a pricing game. However they only show about 200 samples. I'm gonna guess they give .40/ft. for the real expensive ones. Their 50% is truly 50% off my price for a similar profile. If you ask me the only way to keep up is to buy better.

[K]

I have been encountering this for quite some time with Michael's and found their prices to be higher. I don't have a Jo Anns close by. I got tired of it and revamped my advertising. If you are advertising you may want to rethink your marketing strategy. If you aren't, you may want to consider it. I'm not suggesting that anyone advertise 50-70%Off coupons as a way to compete. Before opening my shop, I spent 14 years in advertising and found it to be a necessary "evil" for most businesses. I do advertise, but not 50-70% off coupons.
Way to go Ellen At Howards!

[Gumbogirl]

For some reason, this feels like beating a dead horse, but I am getting into this, anyway.

Yes, it's exactly as briank reported. First job, you get half off, bring in two jobs, you get 60% off of each. Three or more jobs, you get 70% off every framing job- no limit at the store near us.

It's my understanding that their numbers are way down from the first few sales they did like this. As someone said above, it just seems like eventually it will implode. But, not being a Bob C., I'm not delving into that.. has their market has been saturated? Their market, meaning the ones that think 40.00 is too much for a RM.

Meanwhile, I still have happy, loyal customers that are paying me more than what they would if they took it to Mike's and paid 32.00 for it, which is what I'm guessing an average 70% off ticket looks like there. But then, I actually give them creative framing choices!

[YooperFramer]

Michaels grand opening in tomorrow here in marquette. I was going to bring them something to price/frame but one of the gals they hired is one of our customers! AND she has NO CLUE about framing. but she said they do give a one week training session so she'll be able to learn everything. LOL! this should be interesting...

[JbNormandog]

Does this mean that if I bring in enough stuff it will eventually be free. Or better yet bring in too many pictures and they will pay me?

I'll just carry the same mouldings as them, drop off my customers work to them to frame for a bargain and then charge my customers normal price.

I think in the long run they will do eachother in like all giants eventually do.

[BUDDY]

As some one else said I am no Bob C. But what it sounds like to me that they are aimming for is VOLUME.
It shouldn't be too difficult to use one of the priceing comparisons posted here and insert the lowest figures ( for sake of the discussion) and discount it 70% you might find that they are still makeing a profit but a very samll one.

However not unlike a similar suggested theory from a very well know Supplier ,if you make a smaller margin per job but make more sales you might end up with the same profit.Still another point in this premiss is that the more jobs that they have brought to them ( even at a smaller profit margin) the less anyone can bring to other shops.I guess we can all see where that might lead.
However we can always hope they reach critical mass in there production and turnaround time with their staff that has learned it all in a one week information packed trainning session.

When I was in the Oil refineing business we were told by our Plant Supreintendant that the name of the Game at one point was "TO BE A SURVIOR" .By this he meant that sales were dewindleing and there were too many refinerys so eventually some would drop out .As they did those that remaind would realize a bigger and bigger piece of the market pie,as the numbers decreased. So what ever you could do to ensure your survival and the other guys demise was to your advantage.Does this have any seeming similarities to our current thread?

But the big problem is where does this lead the industry to when the public expects lower and lower prices?And that too sounds strikeingly like another topic I have seen discussed before.
BUDDY

[Creative Chicks]

Welcome K,
I have a degree in commercial art so I am fully aware of how important advertising is, and I agree with you, NOT playing thier coupon games. We have a Michaels 2 miles down the road in one direction, and a JoAnns 1 mile in the other direction. I have ultimately decided I can't let what they are doing bother me because we have two different kinds of clientele.
Lori

[Lance E]

It's hard to know if the effects of the marketing they run will effect the overall perception of the market, however if consumers realise that this is the price when heavily discounted then it could well be beneficial in the longer term as their expectations of price are more realistic...?

From the business perspective I would speculate that this is simply an excercise where they are increasing the cashflow - the faster you can move the money back and foward etc...

[Magnolia Framing]

We had a lady buy three magnolia prints from us earlier this week. My wife initially tried to get the framing job for it, but the lady said she would like to check around first. My wife did get her to agree to come back and give us a chance to work up a deal.

You guessed it - she went to Michael's because of their 70% off. As she promised, she came back and let us also give her an estimate.

It turns out that Michael's 70% off price was just $20 less than our full price. Makes you wonder, doesn't it. Oh, by the way, we got the framing job.

[Gumbogirl]

Magnolia, glad they came back, glad you got the job.

Excellent. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

I worked for a group of folks who tried this once. It drove a sh*tload of traffic, work, cash, and OVERTIME. The extra payroll required to actually produce this work quickly ate up most of the already reduced margine.

The idea for them was to just grab the customer before someone else does. In the end it actually hurt them more than it helped. They could not deliver orders on time, the qualty was not good and supplies ran out only increasing the turnaround time. Guess what. Customers were not happy and their dsales continue do drop now for the 4th year running..... Great Idea!

Now their customers just wait for the next coupon......

[MerpsMom]

There was an article in the paper yesterday about GM's promotion to "let the public buy at employee discount." It worked and they sold many vehicles. Article further opined about the next phase: the public expecting even deeper discounts and not buying until offered them.

No mystery to much of this, seems to me.

[Sharonx]

My husband was a gift rep for 30 plus years. His favorite expression when he saw ads like these was 70% off what. I use that with my customers and explain that I don't start with an over inflated top price.
I also have a competitor that advertises they will match any competitors price for THE SAME QUALITY FRAMING. My response to my customers is how much can they sell up when I am already using quality wood moulding, rag mat, conservasion glass and acid free back.
Customers are'nt as stupid as some BB think they are.

[BUDDY]

Cathy ;I'm sorry to be responding so late but Cindy and Dennnis had taken a lot of my time lately.

But at one time I did work for GM and we did regularly utilize the Employee discount program. I 'm not sure what they are offering right now to the public nor if the program has changed since my termination , but when I was employeed the typical employee discount started at 35% of the list and frequently we could buy Company demos( cars that had 3000 miles or 3months useage by company empoyees ,who were given a new one at the same rate,but which could be ordered as we wanted them equipped. Also they frequently didn't consider the extras when computing the selling price).The end of the model year could go up to 37% off the list .I don't thin that is exactly what they are offering the general public.In addition to that we would some times get a friendly dealer to handle the sale for $100 to cover the tax and liscenening.This included all models GM sold from Chevys to Cadillacs and even an occasional Corvette.It was possible to buy a fully equipped car of your choice and Trade it in on the next years car and sometimes MAKE a profit ( as long as you didn't keep it for two years.)

So my point is Even GM is probaly playing games with their promotions and what they actually entitle you to. But if the public gets a better deal and they THINK thay are being treated SPECIAL they are happy. The key is PERCEPTION ,both here and in the FRAMING biz.
BUDDY

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Yea I saw a story about GM that theyre actually selling them for more now with the "employee discount" (slightly below invoice) than before the promo. The old promos had higher cash back incentives that, which were no longer effective.

[Rogatory]

Buddy, what is/was the mark up on a new car?

[BUDDY]

David ,I really didn't and still don't know .But at any rate ,as good as UAW benefits are and were and despite any perks the company gave to employees ,you can be assured that GM didn't ever GIVE anything away .Not even to their actual employees.
They used to be the Number ONE profit makeing Corporation in the USA ,and they didn't get there by LOOSEING Money to anyone.

I'll bet that even at that 37% discount and all other adjustments they still made SOMETHING regaurdless of how small.
IMHO. But It was GREATLY APPRECIATED by the employees just as any discount ( real or percived) is appreciated by all consumers( when you think you are getting a better deal than others "You don't look a gift horse in the mouth.").Isn't that the real KEY?
BUDDY

[Bob Carter]

We all tend to want to denigrate every promotion that comes down the pike. And the recurring theme centers around how stupid customers are that fall for these "schemes" that we so "easily" see right through.

The facts are slightly different.

We all want to suggest that Michael's hyper-inflates their prices and now we are accusing GM of similar tactics.

This is such an obviuosly silly ruse that, guess what, even Ford is now offering it. And they hope they can match the great success GM had.

I wish we would post some actual regular prices from Michael's on some identifiable prices (like a sheet of 24x36 UV clear glass or a sheet of Alpha board); something that is a dead on comparison.

Anybody want to bet a dozen Krispy Kremes that many (if not most) of us will have prices that exceed those of Michael's. I can speak with some certainty of this, as we shop our competition quite regularly and Michael's is rarely the highest priced provider.

At least, in our market

Perhaps others that have done similar studies in their market can offer their findings.

Our Analysis: Michael's prices are higher than average, but rarely the highest. In essence, they are using "marketplace" pricing. The fact that they offer discounts as an overwhelmingly successful promotional strategy reflects their trememdous Buying Advantage tht they, wisely, have turned into a powerful Selling Advantage.

I you had the same advantage, that of buying product at 70% or more less than you presently do, how would that affect your retail pricing?

This answer will define the differences between being a picture framer that owns a business and a business owner that does picture framing

But, what would you do if suddenly the moulding you pay $4/ft now costs you $1.50/ft?

[JRB]

I think it all boils down to what income we have to generate from our business's. If we owned several stores,( I don't know the number, so I opted for being a wise ***.) like Michaels does, we would not have to generate the profits on each sale. A one shop owner is stuck, he/she must generate a whole lot more profit to earn even the most basic of livings.

In Michaels case, if they generate a ten, or even five dollar profit, for each custom framing order, they are taking in some pretty impressive profit dollars. I don't see anyway in heck, a small one or two person shop could earn any kind of living on those profit margins.

If you invent any kind of nationally consumed whatever, it is feasible to only make a few pennies on each unit sold, and be a very wealthy person as a result.

I think it is a matter of you deciding, just how much volume you want to do, how many people you want to manage and be responsible for, and how much space you want to rent.

Myself, I like being a small two person operation. The only way I can do that is try and put out a better, more unique, product than the other guy. Try and give better service to my customers. Try and have a better looking shop, etc.

Sometimes this strategy works great for me, other times it does not. That is why I must try and save money whenever I can. The slow times impact me a whole lot more than they do the guy who runs Michaels.

John

[Bob Carter]

Absolutely correct, John. It is a wide open marketplace with as many methods of operation as there are operators that wish to do it "their" way.

I just seems that we take a lot of effort in pointing out the "villains" in the marketplace.

Buit, without Frankenthreading this into a philosophical disagreement, I do hope some will take the time to post some of Michael's (or others) commodity prices. I'll post a few tomorrow from our latest surveys

But, as I suggested, I think we will be surprised to find that a lot of prices, while maybe higher than ours, will not be higher than the marketplace.

It will be an interesting informal survey that compares these diverse pricing schemes

And, I would love to know what would happen if costs were suddenly reduced to levels available to these behemoths

[JRB]

Bob, I think the bigger your operation, the more critical the cost of goods becomes. As a small shop, my biggest expense, by far, is labor. I try to buy as best I can, it is definitely a factor in being able to offer my customers something for a little less.

As far as what the big boxes are retailing their products for, myself, it is not all that important to me. I already know I can not compete with their pricing, or maybe I can. I have had customers tell me my prices are less in a lot of cases. I have also had folks tell me I am the most expensive shop in the world. The one thing I do know for sure is, I have to earn a living, so does Mary.

My prices are based more on those issues than what another shop is selling their products for. I honestly believe other people set their prices based on their own perceived needs, not on what I need to earn a living. I also think that is the way it should be.

Shopping other business's prices is interesting, I'll give you that. I do not see how that could change my pricing structure. I also agree with you, I will be willing to bet Michaels and Aaron Brothers full retail prices are the same or less than most small shops. They can buy better, and they do not have to make as much on each job sold, as the small operation.

This is what makes them big, this is Wall Marts success. This is why small neighborhood business.s are disappearing. People actually complain about what happened to the small, local hardware stores. They just want to run down and pick up a hing or a couple of screws. They do not want to go through the huge, time wasting hassles of Home Depot to pick up these items.

These are the same people who voted the small, neighborhood business out of business, with their shopping dollars. Who can blame them, the mega stores sell for as much as half, what the small shops sold things for.

You are right, the buying public would much rather go to large, centralized operations, wait in lines, have idiots help them, to save a few bucks. I'm ranting now, sorry.

John

[BUDDY]

Bob I hope I didn't and am not stepping out of line with my opinions and memories.I definetly don't want to bite the hand that feed me for 16 years and will pay my pension at 65.

However those were the actual figures ( as best I can remember them ) to the actual employee program. From what I can see it was a better deal than is being currently offered to the public. We even were given a discount on the interest if we used GMAC to Finance the purchase.

My point was that we were happy and so are the consumeing public now. Both of us , because we were getting a better deal than we thought anyone else could get. The only ruse ( as far as I know)is to claim that it is identical to what the employees are getting. As to wether it is a true discount ,I have no doubt. As to wether it is what it is being portrayed as ,I have serious reservations( granted that I have been seperated from GM ,other then retirement benifits, for a long time now).

But not unlike what Michaels or any other BB may claim the deal isn't as good as they make it seem.
That is what I meant by PERCEPTION. But I also belive ( as you aptly pointed out with the FORD comparison)these promotions are very effective and should be imullated as much as possible,while paying attention to the real methods to their maddness.
BUDDY

[David N Waldmann]

Originally posted by BUDDY:
I'll bet that even at that 37% discount and all other adjustments they still made SOMETHING regaurdless of how small.If what you say is true, then they should show a net profit of 37% or so at the end of the year. I don't think so.

I would suspect more along the lines that maybe the covered their COGS; which, in a true manufacturing environment, is quite a bit different that what a frame shop sees. To be honest, I'd love to have a 63% COGS.

Consumer Reports used to publish an index of each model's approximate cost to price ratio. My recollection is that it ranged from about .81 (on USA models) to about .90 (on Japanese models). This was before the days of being able to get actual figures, and was provided to give you an idea of how much you might be able to haggle.

[BUDDY]

David maybe my assumption on their making a profit on the ACTUAL employee discount program was inaccurate. But The discount wasn't. So maybe on the ACTUAL program they did loose some profit that they felt was recovered in Employee efforts. Like the other benifit programs.

Which may point out the dispairity between the Employee dicount program as I knew it and what they are calling the same being offered to EVEYONE now. Which would seem to point out the reason for the differance. Don't you think?
BUDDY

[ERIC]

Its all smoke and mirrors, and a bit of a shell game (corporate shell that is). All tweeked to get the legal dept. sign off.

Hate to be a punk here, but I think BOTH of the employee discount programs have been reworked in order to allow for this new promo scheme.

As I have been told, all GM employee's are buying through a different subsidiary of GM, no longer the actual factory.

I used to work for Ford in their insurance company, which was a subsidiary of the credit corporation. My company car was owned by Ford factory, but employee purchases were brokered through the credit division, even if you paid cash.

At this point, the fact that Ford has followed suit says one thing to me - and my I point out that it took how long for them to do this? :confused: - the discounts ain't nothin no how!!

If you actually think that this new discount was really great for the public, would't Ford have been hot on GM's heels with this counter punch? They were not because on paper the deal sucked. Prior to the launch, the success was spotty because it might NOT HAVE FOOLED the public into signing on the dotted line. Once it hit the streets though, they know by the day how many units are selling and Ford could not sit on inventory.

Here is another angle that is particular to the car dealer - this eliminated the haggled price. And the dealers now know to the penny how much they are walking away with. And if you as the customer are told that the price is the same everywhere, you won't shop around as much. I can't explain it enough, but to a car dealer these two factors are worth a million $$$$.

Bob, I understand the point you are rightly making, about us pointing to the promo boogie man, but in this case of the GM/Ford programs, from I have seen first hand, yeah, it is successful, and it is not the deal that it is being made out to be. They discovered a buzz word that has never been used in this setting from an auto manufacturer. They will run it for as long as it works and then they will find the "next new better than the last deal" program.

I can just imagine at some big meeting with the marketing exec's and the factory exec's the word "employee discount" was presented to a stunned crowd. When the factory reply's 'we just can't do that!' marketing replys 'ah, yes, but just like any of our ad campaigns, lets just make them think we are'.

I'm done with the soap box, anyone else? graemlins/icon21.gif

[Baer Charlton]

Subaru is doing the same thing here (employee price), but they are all on the 2005 models, NOT
on the new 2006....

That has yet to be discounted.

Dealers make their real income on Used and Service....

[Jay H]

Sure thing Bob.

Hobby Lobby
24X36
Bainbridge mat $19
Fit $7
Glass $18
NG Glass $36

Independent #1
Crescent PAPER MAT $27
Fit $20
Glass $22

Me
Crescent Select $27 This was a very hard item for me to price because HL has the best mat on the market for way less than I can afford to sell it. Independent #1 has no desire to carry anything but paper and is the highest I have found. So where do I fit in? I have decided that I can sell Selects for a similar price but I'm still way way higher than HL for a similar product???????

Fit $10
Glass $22
NG Glass $45

It doesn't seem that HL is playing any pricing game whatsoever. Their frames weren't out of line either and yes they run them 50% off ever-other week or so.

You will notice how I'm right in-between these two shops in price. Some “know it all” in Atlanta suggested that this was often a pretty safe place to be. I haven't seen his name on anything from decor for this year. Are you teaching anything?

[Bob Carter]

Jay-Wasn't asked to teach by the "new" education providers at Atlanta. I think I may have closed a door at Decor a few years back when they wanted me to write for them and I declined.

I, at first, was all hurt, ego-bruised and all. Right up until I realized that Jay Goltz and Marc Bluestone weren't either.

Now, I realize that they weren't losing a thing by me not being there to teach, but I think they are making a huge mistake with the other two guys

In truth, PPFA is having it's mid-year get together in San Diego in September. My first loyalty would have to be to my job as a Director.

My next biggest loyalty is to PFM that runs the best education forums in the biz at WCAF at Las Vegas-class act with solid people. They have been good to me and I owe them my loyalty.

About pricing, I like to be near the top of market. After all, if some other shop (that is successful and actually sells a bunch)can get $22 for glass, then I ought to, also.

But, I always try and find a few "hot" items that are extremely popular that I can sell at "hot" prices (but with great margins) to separate myself in the "price impression" game.

Everything else, I opt for "market" pricing based on the higher strata of the market. You can always come down with a nifty little promo (while maintaing your regular pricing)

[Mike LeCompte CPF]

I'm gone for over ayear, and y'all still on Michael's??? O well, here's another thought: has anyone ever considered what percentage of their sales constitute the framing end of the business? I mean they sell other stuff and our Michael's here has the framing department tucked in a corner. Same with JoAnne. Just wonder if they can give this 70% or whatever and make it up in the other departments.

[billdisc]

Hello! I'm a newbie. My handle is billdisc.

Competiting head on with mass merchandisers like; Michaels, Joann's, AC Moore, Hobby Lobby, etc. is financial suicide.

I make this statement based on common sense. My qualifications are that I am a consumer. (I also spent the last 50 years in marketing and advertising).

If I can buy something competitively I seek the best price. But if I need expertise, good taste, experience and a selection, price is secondary. My wife would not be caught dead in a mass merchandiser. She has done business with one of the two local framers for over 25 years. We both believe that when you want a professional job you go to a professional.

In advertising there are the standard expressions used in these situations:
• No sales here, just quality and dependability!
• ...your local framer for over XX years!
• you can buy cheaper, but not better!
• for a cheap price you get a cheap product!
• when you care enough to want the very best!

...and many more.

There is also and old expression; "The first place to go for additional business is within the framework of your existing business"

To this end why don't you as a group start a list of "Other related services" you can provide that a mass merchandiser does not. I'll start if off with a list of items that will be related and create additional traffic as well as sales.
• Personal portraits on canvas (mother & Father's day plus year 'round)
• Family portraits (all occasions)
• Pet portraits (year 'round)
• Home portraits (housewarming, anniversary, etc.)
The traffic is when the customer sees a in-store display, ad ad, a direct mail piece, etc.
1. They come in with a photograph to order. 2. They return when the proof is in for their approval. 3. When they return to pick up the framed portrait. That adds up to 3 return visits to your shop.

You can find suppliers in all the above categories on the web. Many offer all, but are usually good at one.

I've started the list, how about adding to it?

Thanks for allowing me to ramble.
...and as you can see by my signature I have an axe to grind.

[Jerry Ervin]

Welcome to the Grumble Bill and thanks for the insight from a framing consumer.

[jini]

I work for a BB company. Yes, I do know what I am doing I can't say as much for some of my co-workers. I hate the coupons, customers will wite for them and you become slammed. BBs can get away with the coupons for two main reasons. 1. We have the store to carry us, yes we need to make profit but if we don't make a large profit we don't have to worry about paying out creditors or our lights going out. 2. We buy in bulk. I can tell you one of the leading frame providers love us. The more you buy, the better the deals. So our prices may be competitive, however our bottom line is lower. But one thing is for sure, unless you have expirienced, knowledgeable, and friendly people on your counter you will not survive.

[FloridaHangUpz]

Wow..interesting Feedback...DO WHAT I DID if you want to know whats going on at Michaels...I WENT on a JOB INTERVIEW in the framing department last week.

It turns out they can offer a week training because all they are teaching you is how to do the fitting and take measurements. Here is what I was told:

- YOU help the customer find a frame/matt/glass etc.

_ YOU take the measurements

- YOU then enter all those into the computer

- THEY (Some central LOCATION of Michaels), takes your measurements does all the cutting of matts on a Wizard, cuts the moulding and sends it back to you via MAIL.

- YOU then assemble and fit the job and give it to the customer.

- YOU might get to cut the glass because I did see a Flecther in their frame shop and I know its costly to ship glass but..they probably have a bulk mailing discount as well

- YOU are paid by the hour

- Also they have some really old looking moulding.

SO if you want to get into the framing business and go to Michaels to learn, their "newest" approach is to TRAIN a bunch of EXPERT FITTERS.

[Bob Carter]

Well, in our operation, My people "help the customer pick a frame,matt,glass,etc.

Then MY people "take the measurements"

Then MY people "enter those into a computer"

Then, They (the framers in the back shop)cut the mats on a Wizard, cut/join the frames and do not send them by mail

Then, MY people assemble it and give it to the customer.

We, too, have a Fletcher glass cutter, pay our people by the hour and have some mouldings on the wall that have been around longer than Ron Eggers.

So, all I can tell is that Michael's does many times the volume of the average framer and we do many times the volume of the average framer. And, there is a guy up in Chicago that I've heard of that does many times the vloume that I do that has a similar set up.

I guess we all got it way wrong?

[Jay H]

A while back I was having a conversation with one of the brightest minds in this trade. We were discussing how we can better compete on price with the BB. He identified the biggest expense we have is not moulding. It’s the shipping and handling we pay in getting that moulding. The most inefficient way we can possibly buy moulding to pay a manufacturer to import it. Then pay them to repackage it and ship it to vendors. Then pay that vendor to store and cut that moulding into little pieces and ship it to us. There isn’t a worse way to buy moulding.

The BB uses a similar method. Many times they pay to ship the imported moulding to a central location. Then build frames and again ship them to each store. Their great buying keeps cost down but they still have to pay the extra labor and extra shipping. We have the beautiful ability to cut out one markup and one shipping/handling fee. No you won’t be able to show 14,347 profiles. No you can’t show every new beautiful weekly profile LJ rolls out. But you can sell frames competitively. As Michels and Bob has so clearly illustrated to me, the customers seem to be fine with this arrangement. Why on Earth wouldn’t I be fine with it too?

[FloridaHangUpz]

NO, I am not saying it's a bad thing. My point was that if someone wanted to really learn about framing and grow in the field, it might be hard to do so at a place where all you can do is fit but then again, it might be a great starting point! That's it. Smile.