Suppliers who compete with you

[Peter Ackerman]

Please accept my disclaimer first: United Mfrs has not ever and will not under my management open any frame shop, franchise or otherwise compete with our customers.

Now a hypothetical question: Say you have a long term relationship with a supplier of moulding, glass, and supplies, whatever. You find out that this supplier has plans to open multiple frame shops in many states that will compete directly with you.

Do you continue to purchase material from this supplier? What are your feelings about a supplier who does something along this line?

[wpfay]

Whoa...that knocks Ron out of contention for the Can-o-Worms award.

Peter, I think this subject has been hauled over the coals pretty well by now. Only real difference is that you made it hypothetical. Everyone else gave the company a name.

Ya'll that want to enter the fray, feel free. I'm over it.

[El Framo]

Do you know something we don't?

By the way, had some out of stocks from you guys a few weeks ago, and got a callback when they came in and they were shipped freight free. We've always had to keep track of out of stocks on our end, so this helps out greatly. Thanks.

[Peter Ackerman]

I am not speaking of Larson or Joann's.

[Handy]

we had a somewhat similair situation.

We were bidding on a hotel order and found out after we bid that one of our suppliers was bidding on it as well.

It was very difficult for all of us. I think it somewhat hurt our relationship. I can see both sides of this coin, but it was very frustrating for us.

I think that the answer to your question depends on where you are located and how easy/difficult it might be to switch to another company. In a case like it it would seem as though the company doesn't value "any" of their customers.

[B. Newman]

Let's play 20 questions...

Does your question have anything to do with this:
http://www.thegrumble.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001037

I ask because of what you said:
Originally posted by Peter Ackerman:
Keep an eye on this thread as I am sure it is going to get real interesting. Betty

[Peter Ackerman]

Betty,
I do so love games. Yes it does. Don't you just love a mystery?

[Mecianne]

Only in movies & books, not business.

[framah]

Just as I dropped Larson-Juhl for attempting to take over the market by buying up as many frame suppliers as they could, I would drop the supplier in a heart beat. The caveat would be, of course, if they were the only one from whom I could get supplies. In that case, I would have no choice but to bite my tongue and continue with them.
If they suddenly opened a store in my town I'm not sure what recourse I would have except to torch their place. (hypothetically, of course!!)
It is also a good reason why I live up here at the end of the earth where no large companies as such would bother.

[Jerry Ervin]

It has happened to me. TI Industries has 2 retail locations in Lexington NC.

Do I buy their products?

Me thinks not!

If they were the only moulding manufacturer in the world, I would find another business to be in.

[El Framo]

I'm with Jerry and the others on this one. I cannot in good conscience support a distributor who is not supporting me. I know there are those that wear both hats, just don't expect my business.

[johnny]

Knee-jerk reaction would be to say f-em. A lot would depend on the proximity and, more importantly, their prices to the public. If they were charging full retail without discounts I'd be more likely to retain them if I was doing well with them. If they discounted I'd be more likely to fire a RPG through their window.

[Emibub]

So.......what is the punchline? The sooner you tell us the sooner we can make the gut wrenching decision if we keep them or not.....

[JbNormandog]

There are too many suppliers near me to keep anyone that tries to work both sides of the street.

If you want to be a suplier be one, If you want to be a frame shop be one, don't expect an order from me one day and then make me work twice as hard the next to keep my client base.

That is why Larson will never cross my doorstep.

[Whynot]

OK, everybody got a chance to graciously flex his muscles in front of an imaginary supplier who allegedly is competing with us. But why don't we stop this relentless martial drill in front of the mirror and learn who the enemy really is? You don't want your shadows run for safety in face of furious you. They might never return.
Peter, and now what? What’s next?

[ERIC]

Peter, it's nice of you to find out how we would handle such a problem, but I think there is a huge difference between your perpective and from ours in such a situation

This sounds like you are talking about our vendor's vendor. Right?

If YOU were to drop this vendor of yours, it would have a direct impact on us, your customers, because you would have to take them out of your catalog. Right?

We, who rely on you so much would demand an explination that justifies such a deletion, thus putting the burden on you to broadcast the reason for you decision to many thousands of framers all across the country, right?

I'm feelin' for you right now. The things that must be going on in your head.

[Jim Miller]

I'm sure Peter has a specific situation in mind, and he obviously believes it could have a significant impact on our industry. But until plans are solid and rumors are proven, he's wise to not fuel speculation.

Regardless of that, he raises a good question about issues many of us have to address with lots of our suppliers, at least to some degree.

For example, my local distributor sells cut-to-size mats & glass and joined custom frames, at wholesale prices to photographers, artists, and darn near anybody else who asks. That is, everything needed for "custom framing" except the fitting. So far they have refused requests to finish the framing -- as far as I know.

New twist: This supplier is now offering (Chinese? Korean?) closed-corner frames to all of us at prices much lower than any of us could build out of similar moulding purchased from any source. This seems to me like eating one's own foot, but they say they must compete with offshore suppliers who sell via the internet, etc.

Little by little, suppliers with the best of intentions seem to be eroding their own "traditional" custom framing business in favor of new revenue streams. They are, after all, in business to make profit, and we haven't been giving it to them lately.

The LJ/JoAnn deal is like that. LJ made a conscious decision to -- in the minds of many, right or wrong -- contribute to the demise of small-shop custom framers, who were once their primary customers.

Was starting up that relationship a mistake for LJ? Apparently not, because they seem to be doing better than they would have if they had "taken the high road" by forsaking that business in order to support us exclusively. It's been said that the JoAnn profits have enabled LJ to continue full service to us, which might have had to be trimmed otherwise.

But what about the effects of such new deals in the long term? The future of framing is so fog-shrouded that it probably isn't wise to count on business more than a couple of years out.

It's going to be another interesting year, friends. Stay tuned.

[JbNormandog]

Does Whynot's post mean anything?

Our opinion was asked and responses were given. No one is flexing anything.

Would you drop the suplier or not?

Curious.

[ERIC]

Make sense? Whyofcoursenot.

[Jay H]

In a heartbeat. I think...maybe.

I have a vendor who does custom framing. I'm sure many of us do. The difference is that they aren't looking to expand or go aggressively after my customers. They certainly aren't looking at opening multiple shops.

[BUDDY]

I hate to admit it but I think Cornel's comments made sense to me. We are at this time flexing our muscle to an imageinary competitor ,since we ( at least most of us) don't really know who or if there is a real Supplier/Suppliers who are considering becomeing our retail competitors.

And until Peter or someone else injects some real names that is all we are doing IMHO.

I have seen many framers say they would drop a supplier in a heart beat under those conditions and after some time they are doing business as usual.In fact I once repeated that very sentiment from my LJ rep who turned down a deal in an effort to not alienate the small shops only to have another vendor take it and everyone complained and then kept doing business with the deal maker. It was posted in a comment about "No Customer loyalty"

Does anyone remeber it? Around here most have already forgotten it.And the LJ rep says he wishes he could have a second chance ,he take it in a heart beat. Maybe that is what Peter is pointing to?
BUDDY

[GUMBY, GCF]

LMAOF
Welcome to the real world!~

Little story!~ There is a Wholesale/Importer Craft supplier in Ohio!~ Along time ago the started opening up Retail stores under another name!~ Neglecting to tell all their wholesale customers that they were doing it!~ They grew & grew to now about 20+ stores. Meanwhile they wooed caressed small independent craft store to the point of becoming there sole source wholesaler!~ Next thing you knew they would open a new store. Lets think now did they have to do any marketing? Did they have to put any thought into the store merchandise mix? No not really they knew all of that by what their wholesale customers were buying from them and the volume to expect from an area!~ They even had the biggest chain buying from them Micheals(LOL)!~ The part about it that shows strnght is they did not come in and sell at retail they opened retail stores and sold fro 40%_50% off the retail prices. It did not take long to exstingish their competition/customers. They have expanded out of Ohio into PA.
Buy the way did I mention they also do framing!~ 40%-50% off everyday!~
Get ready a Craft industry trade magazine even wrote an article about how good this supplier was!~ LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO
Comeing to a city near you!~LOL

Welcome to the real world!~ It pays to ask your supplier who they sell to and if they do bid or contract work that might really be your competion!They may not be doing it to you but do they do it where they are located and if so remember you may be helping the start of more or no less than hurting the independent framers where they are located!~ If you don't ask the answer is always no!~

Peter Do'nt Know why you threw this out but one thing That So Many Businesses lack today can be summed up in one word :

INTEGRITY

Main Entry: in·teg·ri·ty
Pronunciation: in-'te-gr&-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
Date: 14th century
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : INCORRUPTIBILITY
2 : an unimpaired condition : SOUNDNESS
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : COMPLETENESS
synonym see HONESTY

By the way this has all been written by a fiction writter at heart!~ The names have been ommitted to protect me!~

[Ceilidh]

James

Please forgive my ignorance but this thread is obtuse enough without your proclaiming LMFAO or LMAOF and not letting on in the slightest as to what you're on about.

What do they stand for?

C

[Rogatory]

Ceilidh,
Click Here (http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/l/lmao.htm) For an explanation.
:D :D :D

[Sammy]

Hmmm something is happening out there and it is from one company, this topic has been coming up a few time since x-mas, and it started by a new grumbler asking about our opion of opening a large group of stores, and then the post that Betty mentioned came up on The Grumble. I would say it is all from the same person/company. I would never buy from a supplier or even buy from the supplier who's supplier is competing with the retailers.They are only using the retaler to gain strength to continue compete with use, and when the time is right they will take over all the market shares, and the only person use retailer can blame will be ourselves because we allowed them to get so strong.

[CharlesL]

I know I'm as dumb as a stump, but I read all the stuff on Parrie's web site. He comes across as more of a teacher/counselor/consultant than a "Yes ma'am! We'll have this ready by the middle of next week" - pitcher framer on his site.

If a supplier DID start opening shops in all 50 states, I'd do my best to inform the other framers of his unfair advantage. And, at the same time, explain how they, the customers are getting ripped of even though the price is lower. Then I'd probably go drown him...

[Dermot]

I had a look at Parrie's site also…..I’m still trying to figure out what his international dimension is…….then again I suppose it sounds good……..international in the mind of most reputable business people I know means that you operate a business on a number of continents ……..I cannot find any evidence other than his claim on his web site that he operates anywhere other than the US…….I would not consider given a few classes around the world would qualify anyone to claim they are an international business….

I find it astonishing that anyone would question Peter’s motivations as a business person and manager of a business, he is perfectly right to use any reasonable methods to explore the possibilities of a new business venture that may impact on his business…………..and if that includes trowen out a line to see what it catches more power to his elbow…..

I have just dumped the main suppliers (now replaced by a much more honorable supplier) for my new business…..they clamed they only sold through their agents/distributors and then went and opened there own web shop…….they tried to spin it that the web shop was not in conflict with there existing sales channel…….I think they had the idea that there existing customers were a bit stupid and would not notice……..

[Ron Eggers]

I hope I'm wrong. I probably am.

But I look at all the small family dairy farms in Wisconsin (and other states) and think, "Oops, there goes another one."

In my lifetime, I expect to see ALL the farms consolidated into one big corporate farm. Ironically, it'll probably be called Microfarm. They'll be able to charge whatever they want for milk, which will have names like Milk XP v2.0897.

I'm sure this has nothing at all to do with frame shops, though.

[Whynot]

Hey, what if I turn the table on you and say that everyone has to do what he has to do in order to survive and, God willing, prosper from expanding his business. Opportunities may show up in any possible direction, including going retail or wholesale, west or east, vertically or horizontally.
Ultimately, being a wholesaler is not such a big deal and, depending on what type of business you are in, running a wholesale operation may prove to be less expensive and demanding than retail.
If so, I can see some smart framers getting involved with small manufacturers overseas and become their distributors. Remember that guy from Philippines who almost pulled you by your sleeves? Say that one of you took up on the challenge of becoming Mr. Exotic Hardwood Molding and Ready-made Frames & Blah-Blah Custom Framer which, if you asked me, is only smart on his part.
Now what? Is Larson Juhle or Roma going to stop doing business with that guy because of his inference with their wholesale turf? Who's chaining you to a rather modest and volatile existence as a framer and a framer only? Sorry, but you react as if you struck a deal of noncompetition with your suppliers, you don't go into wholesale and they don't go retail, and that's simply not true.
Well, now I've done it. I see worms crawling off the can. ;)

[Jim Miller]

I agree with you, Cornel. In our free (or still almost free) market, business owners are free to pursue profit dollars in any direction they choose.

Framing suppliers and retailers are not married to one another. We are simply doing business. Should a supplier be offended when we buy his products from multiple sources? Certainly not. The supplier earns those orders by finding a competitive advantage.

The idea that a supplier should not compete with its customers may be taken to ridiculous extremes. For example, if a framing retailer expected his supplier to decline orders from nearby frame shops with which he competes, that would be ridiculous, would it not?

In any case, actions have consequences. If a business changes in a way that offends customers, then offended customers buy less. But if the changes attract more profitable business from another class of customers, then the business grows.

We buy from suppliers we like, and we avoid suppliers we dislike, for whatever reasons we consider important.

That's really all there is to it, and it is good for all.

[Baer Charlton]

Dermot, "International" can mean as little as having a retail outlet in San Diego, CA and a backroom workshop in Tijuna, Mexico...30 miles away.

Or in your case, doing business in Irland, Mann, and Scotland.... makes you a Multi-National....

As to the senerio that Cornell brings up, I remember when Peter LaMarsh was a framer who went on vacation to Hong Kong and it changed him and the industry forever.
Up until then, most of the nicer mouldings were rectiliniar versions of Rococco, and Regency and a bit of Beau Arts all made in Italy, with a little from Spain and France.

The "LOW" end, was coming up out of Mexico in the back of a couple of `1962 Sedan de Villes with no back seat and passanger seat....

And then now that I think about it: Jay Goltz or Marc Blustone was catching some kind of **** last year for doing a little China moulding wholesaling....

[Dermot]

Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
Dermot, "International" can mean as little as having a retail outlet in San Diego, CA and a backroom workshop in Tijuna, Mexico...30 miles away.

Or in your case, doing business in Irland, Mann, and Scotland.... makes you a Multi-National....
Baer

I was referring to reputable business who trade internationally……..not some ego trip that some business owner may be on……..

My business already does some business in Scotland, UK and believe it or not the USA……I have no idea where Mann is perhaps you could enlighten me……….would I consider that I’m an multi-national business not on your life……I have more respect for myself and more importantly for the international business community…….

I have over 30 years experience of buying and selling internationally and I think at this stage in my career I can understand the difference between a true international business and an opportunity that may present a little business which is outside my businesses natural area of operation……..

Then again some business people have such a limited understanding of international trade that when they voice an opinion on this area of business they generally spout a load of bull s*it……and their ego can take them on to a business plain that makes them look stupid to those who know better……I glad I don’t have to relay on you for any business advice…..

[Peter Ackerman]

Dermot,
perhaps Baer is speaking of Isle of Man

[Jay H]

(sigh)

Carry on.

[Peter Ackerman]

Although I am very sure of my sources at this time I am unwilling to give up the information. I will let you know who owns this new venture as soon as I have verified it.
In the meantime go to http://www.framingus.com

Of course if the owners would care to step forward before I have chance I am sure it would be appreciated

[kenmccann]

Located inside your neighborhood Wallmart store. Dont worry about this if you can custom design a 16 x 20 frame with choice of mouldings, mat and glass for $55. Ken

[stshof]

Madison, AL?!!! Oh, my!!! Nevada and Indiana, too!! This isn't going to be a little operation, is it? :( This is scary - please say something encouraging!!! graemlins/cry.gif

[Mecianne]

graemlins/fire.gif I am pi$$ed. graemlins/fire.gif We are getting a huge Walmart---not just a regular Supercenter, but one of the largest yet. The mayor made the announcement at the last Chamber luncheon & received no expected applause or cheers. Our city is growing by leaps & bounds as far a subdivisions & people moving here goes, but our small business community struggles so. Who the he11 made this commerce move, 'cause I'd sure like to knock them upside the head. How many dollar stores & discount stores do you need in an area? We already have a Wal-mart a few miles from here in our neighboring city.

And now this glorious news. I hate Wal-mart...and for the record...I am not one of those people who says this and then shops there. I do NOT shop at Wal-Mart. :mad:

[GUMBY, GCF]

WELCOME WALMART SHOPPERS!~ lol

Did I do that right?~

Okay everyone who is upset just pick three mouldings, 10 mat colors and advertise: 16x20 custome frame $55.00 exclusive selection of moulding & mats while supply lasts!~

[Gumbogirl]

I don't know what is more surprising and out of place - Dermot sniping like someone pee'd in his Lucky Charms this morning, or the SuperWallyWorld Frames within the store, in less than a week!

[Emibub]

I don't think the intent of this thread was to "out" Walmart frameshops. We have discussed Walmart adding framing more than once, so, it is no surprise. The part that I think will **** us off is who is going to be owning and managing the shops within Walmart's doors......it will be interesting to see who it is........

The Walmart angle is kind of funny, their targets will not be us but they will be gunning for Michael's and Aaron Bros. and Joann's. They will come after us once the big boys cave. I don't see the customer Walmart attracts being our customers. I can't imagine people bringing fine art and treasured posessions into that chaotic environment. It truly will have to be very limited choices to keep the prices low. Sure, Walmart has managed to wipe out other industries but framing is a lot more personal than buying paper clips or toilet paper......

So, now who the flip is going to own the stores and sell the products........

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Theyre building a new super Wallyworld on our street too. Just broke ground.

[DVieau2]

Walmart is continuously experimenting with business services. In some places they tried selling used cars. They're so big that 50 frame shops could easily be considered an experiment.

Walmart is also known for crushing and bankrupting their vendors.

Doug

[ERIC]

They need to fire the person that came up with the name.

No, on second thought give him a promotion. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[Baer Charlton]

Thanks Peter, I was truly getting afraid that I was the only one who knew about the greatest and oldest TT motorcycle races in the world.... :D and well as tailless cats and very horny goats. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

GG: Only the Wallyworld Frames shops are suprising... oh, wait a minute.... they tried it with LJ in Southern Cal back in the early 90s... :eek:

Hmmmmm oh who could it be now....? We're waiting Peter.

Let's see..... offering METAL, fine woods, and MAT board..... hmmmmm :confused: graemlins/shutup.gif

[Dermot]

Oh Bear……your discussing the Isle of Man……it’s a pity you did not describe this beautifully Island correctly the first time.

As I said people who have a poor understanding of the international community can be very disrespectful without even realising they are behaving in such a manner……

Just to clarify it is “Isle of Man”………I have never heard it described by anyone but you as “Mann”……

graemlins/shrug.gif :rolleyes:

[Bob Doyle]

Originally posted by Mecianne:
graemlins/fire.gif I am pi$$ed. graemlins/fire.gif ..... I do NOT shop at Wal-Mart. :mad: Oh no Mecianne!!! Another area where we agree!?!?! I haven't been in a WalMart in over 8 months, (and that time it was to get a poster replacement for a customer.) Beware, I think your arms are starting to grow long enough to reach around a tree and give it a good hug!

Seriously WlaMart getting into framing is scarey to me as well. The way they treat their suppliers will knock the wind out of any frame distributor that works with them (be careful Peter!) The customer will suffer in the long run, and we will "feel the pain" in the short term as they will definitely undercut any and all that are in their areas!

[ERIC]

(be careful Peter!) Something tells me he is staying clear of that danger.

[CharlesL]

Jay, I understand your (sigh) post, I think. If I do, in fact understand it correctly, kudos to Baer for refusing to rise to the 'bait'. I am surprised, though, that he didn't mention the ISDT (trials riding event) that was held there in '65, '71 and '75.

[Dermot]

Charles

Perhaps Bear realised he had made a big enough as* of himself and for once he decided not to compound his behaviour …….

I’m not sure what Jay means by his “sigh”…….but if my instincts are right I shudder…….in this part of the world we do not condone…..the unacceptable…..but then again I do know some people who are happy enough to accept the unacceptable…..I will not condone the unacceptable….such as disrespect to any nation/country or sector of society…..

Bear has behaved in an unacceptable manner on this thread about another country and on other occasions about sectors of society …….I will openly admit I find him somewhat strange and on occasions dangerous in the way he expresses himself…….perhaps Charles you find dangerous and unacceptable behaviour OK……I do not…….nor will I ever lower myself to accept it…..……

Charles you know from personal experiences with some of the stuff you tried to pull on me ( I still shudder from the last unacceptable email you sent me) that I will not accept the unacceptable so perhaps you should butt out of this one…….you are not been helping in anyway…….


:rolleyes:

[Baer Charlton]

Charles, drop it.

Jay, your right.

Cornell, thank you.

Dermet, shut up. You're off topic.

Peter, we're waiting with baited/fettered breath. :D

[Jay H]

I had hoped the “sigh” was a polite nonchalant was of saying “why are you acting so silly?”

That is all I care to share here. I’m sorry I was so vague. I really hope this thread can stay closer to the topic. Perhaps if you need to sort out your difference with Baer (or me) via email or perhaps another thread would be a better place.

I’m sure that there are more than a few framers interested in the saga about Walmart doing framing.

[Rick Granick]

As Olive Oyl used to shout in the Popeye cartoons, "BOYS!, BOYS!"

:eek: Rick

[CharlesL]

Baer and Dermot, consider it dropped.

[Dermot]

graemlins/shutup.gif

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

Repeat after me....

"Grumbling is only a hobby"

[Dermot]

"Grumbling is only a hobby"


:D

[Rebecca]

"like someone pee'd in his Lucky Charms this morning"

Attention, this is a frankenthread.

I have never come across this expression before in all my 50 yrs., and now I've seen it twice in as many days. Is it a Southern thang? Or am I just hanging out in the wrong crowd???

Thanks for any light you can shed.

Rebecca

[DTWDSM]

Wally World has tried frame shops in their stores a couple different time with no success, both local independants and local franchises, neither have worked. All of these are not owned by Walmart, they are leased departments. Sure this one looks to have more $$ behind it with the website and all but let's face it, framing is a disposable income purchase and Walmart isn't the first choice for those type of purchases.

Did read an interesting article today, Walmart is in a huge hurry to open as many super centers as they can in the next five years. They realize that in that time many cities will change their zoning laws so a Walmart would not be able to open. Walmart expect to hire over 800,000 new employees by 2010, that's 2300 a day.

[Baer Charlton]

Rebecca, from your perspective, anything we do in the contiguous 48 states would be a "Southern Thang" :D http://www.getthepictureframing.com/pix/lol.gif http://www.getthepictureframing.com/pix/lol3.gif


It's more of a "Mommily" than any "thang" else. Of course . . . I don't think that anyone would say that in Bawston. http://www.getthepictureframing.com/pix/lgwink.gif

[BUDDY]

I think some one put this in the right prospectives. I also rememeber Walmart leaseing framing centers ( even around here) ,but this has the markings of being well funded. Which would seem to indicate WalMart's personal thumbprint.

If I am not mistaken Joann's venture was also listed as a experimental or trial project. The big difference with trials that we attempt and those WalMarts and even Joanns and some vendors give a shoot at is the amount of CA$H they will invest in an uncertain effort.

This kind of reminds me of a parody on the joke someone posted about a framer winning the lottery . They were asked what they'd do now and the reply was "frame till the money ran out" The coperation will quit as soon as it starts costing more that it is expected to make.

We do this because we like what we do ( to some extent) The big coperates do what makes money. the difference is they will spend a bundle to try to make it work. However if you don't have the correct people and equipment and managment ,it is all for naught and they quickly "Fagitboutit".

But then it seems that is what they are useing Jim and his Placement and training company for. But there still are no guarantees. You can't always solve a problem by throwing MONEY at it ,some times it takes Continued taining and fine tuned skills, which are learned at continued education seminars ,usually attended by PROFESSIONAL FRAMERS who care to produce a quality product and porvide a true sevice to their clientel. Not by someone who works a 9-5 job and goes home and forgets about the employerand all ttheir customers after that. There is a big differance between a PROFESSION( which you choose to be in) and a JOB( that you Have to do to pay the bills).I know I have done booth.IMHO
BUDDY

[Baer Charlton]

A little side note on this Sunday evening....

About 3-4 years ago, some friends took us to a Sears store called At Home or In Home or maybe Home....

It had all sorts of everything you would need to remodel, except the lumber & plaster stuff.

This was all the "finish" stuff like appliances, plumbing fixtures, etc.

And there in one corner, by the front door was a Custom Picture Framing area. Much like some of the new "Bank Branch" in your supermarket....

I haven't seen or heard about anymore of these Sears stores.... but then Home Depot "Expo" centers are supposed to be about the same...

"Picking off the Main Street of America" was how I once heard it expressed by Ross Perot....

[Richard Allan]

Wall Art Custom Framing, Inc.
218 Benton Woods Drive
Matthews, NC 28105
US
Phone: 704-845-2726
Fax: 704-9737852

Domain Name: FRAMINGUS.COM

Administrative Contact , Technical Contact :
Wall Art Custom Framing, Inc.
hmummaw@usagiftsdirect.com
218 Benton Woods Drive
Matthews, NC 28105
US
Phone: 704-845-2726
Fax: 704-9737852

The level above usagiftsdirect, is a company in Texas named Syngenium.

No opinion, Just some info for those interested.


Richard

[Baer Charlton]

Psst! Richard. We all knew that it's WalMart.

But nice try for a first post. Welcome to the frey.

BTW: Unik Moulding??? Is that moulding with no *****?

[Richard Allan]

Is it Walmart? Do they own one of these companies?

Unik (Norwegian for Unique) were you refering to Eunuch, I don't have a harem to protect, nor can I sing.

Thanks for the welcome, not new here, just a new company.

Regards,

Richard

[Garnetta]

The person who owns the domain name "framingus.com" appears to be Greg Robey. Here is his other web site and the phone number and address matches what you found on the domain name owner lookup for framingus.com:

www.mywallart.com (http://www.mywallart.com)

[Rick Granick]

Baer:
That Sears operation you referred to sounds like The Great Indoors. We had one here, with the framing dept. up in the front corner. I think it was run by B A Framer. The store closed after a couple of years.
:cool: Rick

[David N Waldmann]

Originally posted by DTWDSM:
Walmart expect to hire over 800,000 new employees by 2010, that's 2300 a day. There are 2005 days between now and Dec 31, 2010 - that's only 399/day.

Even if you say Jan 1, 2010, and only count week days, there are 1435 days, or 557/day. Still a pretty big number....

[Ron Eggers]

I donno, David. I'm thinking they hire 24/7.

After 11 p.m. you have to go in through the grocery door with your resume.

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Richard Allan:
Wall Art Custom Framing, Inc.

Matthews, NC 28105
We have tried to tell everyone that North Carolina is the framing capital of the world.


I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Huneywood was part of this.

[DTWDSM]

David,

I typed what was written in the article, didn't do the math. (maybe I should next time smile.gif )

Wouldn't that be a joy to be the head of HR for them???

[El Framo]

I'm with Jerry. NC is such a lucrative framing market right now, you'd be crazy not to open up here. Heck, I'm getting rich just sitting here typing this message. Later on I'll probably meet Jerry at the country club, or on his private yacht. We bluebloods aren't too picky.

[Dermot]

I would suspect that some of the hiring numbers include them taking over some existing business…….I believe that one such takeover in the UK added about 30000 + to the Wal-Mart pay roll…..never the less 8000000 is impressive………

Regarding competition for framing…….I still believe that someone is going to get online framing right……..and when they do Wal-Mart will look like a friend……

Dermot

[Baer Charlton]

Originally posted by Rick Granick:
Baer:
That Sears operation you referred to sounds like The Great Indoors. We had one here, with the framing dept. up in the front corner. I think it was run by B A Framer. The store closed after a couple of years.
:cool: Rick Thanks Rick. You are entirely correct. Bob Carter and I sorted that one out. Man, I so glad he's back.

Looks like they have about 14 left up and running...

Come ON Peter, we're dieing out here. Reveal! :D

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

Peter,
Does this have anyting to do with FPE?

[AWG]

BAFramer/FPE and Wally World?

hhmmmmmmm

curious minds want to know.....

[SteveT]

Did all the Home Depot's give up on the framing?

I agree with El Framo, why do all of these stores look at framers and think we are making so much money???

Steve

[EllenAtHowards]

IF I were going into the Cheapo Frame Biz and had no scruples, I would do it thus:
1. drymount everything
2. paper mat (or more likely intl white) everything (probably carry 25 colors; no more)
3. plastic moulding everything (probably 20 styles; no more)
I could churn out a bunch o'framing, with cheap labor.
Let's face it; 80% of what we do could be done quickly by a minimally trained person. Especially if I could cart the stuff to a central facility where I would have a glass washing machine, and other big production tools.
So what if you spoil a few? So what if you lose a few? (This 'no scruples' thing makes it a lot easier to run a business, doesn't it?) I think you could make a lot of money and it is just ripe for the picking.
This is analagous to what happened with clothing. First clothing was made for you individually by a tailor or seamstress. Then someone figured out that most folks can be fit with standard sizes. These were made in American factories and sold in dress or menswear shops. Then department stores came in and provided a lot of the same stuff for less, and they had more money to advertise. Then things went off-shore and discount stores began selling cheaper stuff. Folks quickly became used to buying a bunch of cheap clothes to last a season, instead of a few things that were worn for several years. The rich still have things made for them, or buy 'off the rack' at expensive ritzy stores. But most folks buy their clothes at cheaper places... and don't kid yourself. A LOT of not-so-poor folks buy a lot of their clothes at BigMarts.

[Jay H]

Whos the fool in your story? Is it the customer or the tailor who refused to "lower his standards" and gave away 98% of his customer base?

[AWG]

We were discussing this thread yesterday. Here's a potentially brilliant (if I say so myself) business plan:

Recruit a number of frame shops with excess capacity - just about all of us have some "down time" we'd like to fill.

Find someone who needs large quantities of framed art - Garden Ridge, furniture stores, Pier One, etc... the list is endless.

When they place an order for say, 2000 pieces, farm out the work to those under-utilized shops in your network - 50 here, 100 there, and so on. Supply the materials because you've bought them by the container.

Pay each of those network shops a piece rate - say $20-$30 per frame - to complete and fit the piece to YOUR standard.

Arrange delivery (could be to the local Pier Ones, for example)

Could such a scenario really be all that bad for a small (struggling?) shop? Better low profit jobs than no business, right?

Or am I too late to the party? (Did Jim or Peter's mysterious person beat me to the punch???

Just wondering......

Tony

[ERIC]

I was once told by a very smart business man, "If you have more ideas than money to do them with, stay away from people with money. They usually have more money than ideas."

I'm not picking on you Tony, it's just that as I read your idea, this statment popped up in my head. Mostly because you seem to have identified something that while obvious, may have been overlooked (or at least not talked about) by the thinkers amoung us.

You have given me a great idea for handling a project I want to start. Thanks.

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by AWG:
Pay each of those network shops a piece rate - say $20-$30 per frame - I would take some of that action.

Great idea, however, I believe G Ridge is getting product a lot cheaper than that by the container load from China.

[Whynot]

You asked the wrong question, Jay. I see a different product there, although related to the first. Over more, I’d say that the tailor was not stupid at all and, if only POSSIBLE, he would have gladly "lowered his standards", had that been his REAL problem. But the real issue there was not consumers' appetite for lower quality. Mass produced items of decent quality for considerably much less was, and that’s exactly what finished our poor tailor up. There was no way that tailor could match that price without lowering the quality far beyond that of mass produced items.
To illustrate this last assertion I am going to use my own example. So, am I being able to perfectly reproduce any given piece of molding by LJ or any other such manufacturer? You bet I am. That would be "lowering the standards" for me. Now I must add to this that there is no way I would be capable of matching LJ's price at doing it, though. And the other way around, LJ would probably be equally embarrassed with their price performance if one of a kind framee were being requested from them.
We don't talk here just frames, but mainly technology. Reproducing same object by using different technologies is always possible, but there is only one way of doing it right. And the price will tell which is what. More over, the fact that two different technology users survive in same very competitive market, as ours is, proves that both are making different products and both products are meeting certain consumers’ demand. Therefore comparing different products by way of price or corner sample policy would be wrong ;) LOL

[AWG]

Originally posted by ERIC:
I was once told by a very smart business man, "If you have more ideas than money to do them with, stay away from people with money. They usually have more money than ideas."


You have given me a great idea for handling a project I want to start. Thanks. Ideas - I've got a million of 'em. Bucks - not quite so many.

Eric: Just remember where to send the royalty checks... :D

Jerry - You're spot on. It was long ago,but I assume the bulk of GRidge's preframed stuff still comes from BAFramer's central operation. We used to merchandise the preframed stuff while building out the frame shop at Garden Ridge. The owners claimed to have no more than $20 in any one prefamed piece.

Tony

[Dermot]

Tony…..nice line of thinking………inside or outside the box does it matter……you are stretching the thinking process……you could do a Six Sigma project with that sort of thinking process……

You are thinking on the lines of how online framing could work (or part of it)………forget the traditional way of ordering/selling frames …….I can see the day when frames will be order online and then you take the frame package to a specialist who will fit your piece of art into that package……

If this sound a bit familiar think Dell…..you order your BOX (Computer) then you have a specialist upload/fit the software for you….or if you are good enough you can up upload/fit the software yourself……

If you think I’m off the wall with this you should start digging and find out where some of the smart money is been invested for research and development by some of the computer and software companies……..and believe me the framing/art business is on their radar …….like I said the day will come when Wal-Mart could look like a friend…..

Dermot

[ERIC]

Originally posted by AWG:

Eric: Just remember where to send the royalty checks... :D

Now, wait up! I said that I had a project - which is an idea waiting for the money to do it with. ;) I have to put my idea and your idea together and see what happens. If this is anything like most of my other projects, it will just produce more ideas than money. :(

[ERIC]

:rolleyes:

[Cliff Wilson]

Tony, and ("I would take some of that action.") Jerry

Believe it or not, this has been noodled around by others ...
Who pays for shipping? (materials and finished product)
What volume can you GUARANTEE per month? (for you and the project manager)
Where does the material get stocked?
Do you have room to store? (materials [raw and shipping] and finished product)
Supply the materials? points, backing paper, wire, blades ...
Are you cutting mats, glass, ... or just fitting?

Is it worth it to the project organizer to cut everything ship it around and have you just fit it? If not, can you really do it for $20 - $30?

Don't forget, you have to prep and pack for shipping for that same price.

This is one of those ideas that gets a LOT tougher if you look at it closely. It can work, but it isn't as slam dunk as you think.

The best chance might be a "few" local shops that just picked up "over" demand, but the project manager had most of the capacity handled most of the time.

My 2 cents.

[Patrick Leeland]

I got ideas that I don't even understand...put that with money and my wandering little brain and that is dangerous. I think Einstein once said something like "Genious is knowing when and what to pay attention to". I know that is wrong-sorry Albert. I think to be in business for your self you got to be a little nutty. Looking forward to it.
Patrick Leeland

[AWG]

Cliff:

I think the idea is full of enough potential problems that it will take someone with more money/time/volume than I have to devote to it. It would basically be a chop service for frames and mats - you just need fitters and shippers.

BAFramer does it in their lease departments - no shipping of finished work is involved because that work is "custom" and delivered at the counter.

Remember my model is not custom work - just low margin high volume wall decor - A "China Beater" model if you will.

Einstein also said something like
"The definition of insanity is doing the same things the same ways and expecting different results"

Tony

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

I would not look at BA as a model for anything but inevitable disaster.

As for the "Fitting Service" you are kicking around, I'm OUT! You will be the one fixing ALL of the MANY flaws in the frames and mats when they arrive. The factory workers that cut and join the frames would not care whether it was a frame or a highchair, and as for the quality of the mats...CMC or not, they will s*ck.
Remember,your face and name will be associated with the finished product, that may or most likely will not, meet your standars and the customers's expectations. Suddenly $20-30 will not be nearly enough.

I have see the a similar model first hand and it was UGLY. And that was with the supplier and the stores being owned by the same people. Nevermind what could happen if you were dealing with two different entities.....


OUCH!

[AWG]

Harry:
Don't misunderstand - I'm not shilling for BAF. Personal feelings aside, respect for the business, feelings about the ownership, etc - the business makes money (for a select few). I did my time (sentence) there and don't miss it. I'm just thinking out loud.

Tony

[Peter Ackerman]

I am sorry for the long delay in letting you know who is behind the framing venture at Walmart. I am even sorrier that I will not be giving you the names of the suppliers who are trying to compete with you on a retail level. But the sorriest group of people is going to be the folks who started this in the first place. After a thorough investigation of this venture, I can say in my humble opinion, that it is only a matter of time before it fails. I do not want to rub salt in the wounds of the egos behind this venture as I am sure the embarrassment and cost of this failure will be bad enough. I am going to keep the gruesome details to myself. Perhaps in the future the names of the misguided soles behind this misadventure will be revealed by someone else. Needless to say this is no Joanne's or Michael's. All I can say is that anyone who thought this would work should seriously consider therapy. I still think it is in your best interest to purchase supplies form companies that support you, not compete with you.
That is all I have to say about that.

[Jerry Ervin]

How about if we go to the super secret meeting room?

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by Peter Ackerman:
...After a thorough investigation of this venture, I can say in my humble opinion, that it is only a matter of time before it fails. For all of our sakes I hope you are right.

[stshof]

Originally posted by Peter Ackerman:
After a thorough investigation of this venture, I can say in my humble opinion, that it is only a matter of time before it fails. I still think it is in your best interest to purchase supplies form companies that support you, not compete with you. I would love to know why you think it will fail when it's making framing such a readily available product. It may turn out to be a big waste of time but I think I'll make a road trip this weekend to one of the stores listed (Madison, AL) and do some snooping! Also, how do you know if your companies are competing with you? :confused: graemlins/faintthud.gif

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by Jerry Ervin:
How about if we go to the super secret meeting room? But I don't know the secret handshake... graemlins/cry.gif

Betty

[ERIC]

Maybe, . . . . they were planning to just take the order . . . . and then drop it off to one of us and have the work done.

Nah. tongue.gif

[Patrick Leeland]

Well Peter you got us...and that is it? No pay off? That is a bit unfair. Curiosity got the cat...where is the satisfaction?

Patrick Leeland

[stshof]

Road trip is on for tomorrow - will check mats, frames, customer volume, etc. Anyone else curious about anything? ;)

[Peter Ackerman]

I have already been to the store in Las Vegas. I am curious as to your opinion of the store near you. The one in Vegas heavily promoted a Wizard CMC and had moulding from a South Florida distributor. They also had a PC with the complete catalog of prints available from Lieberman's. It was a very small store and I do not believe they had a saw so all moulding must be chopped or joined. The help was not well trained either. I am looking forward to your impressions.

[Patrick Leeland]

sthof you must also check to see what type of glazing they use. If you are going that is another little thing. Have fun...Walmart is an experience here. It is sort of like the circus...the old circus with the strange people, you know like the bearded lady shops at walmart.

Patrick Leeland

[stshof]

Originally posted by Patrick Leeland:
sthof you must also check to see what type of glazing they use.

Patrick Leeland I'll do it! I'm really curious - Madison, AL is near Huntsville, home of the space center, and there's a lot of highly educated, well paid people here. Was that part of the selection process when the first three Walmart supercenter locations for custom framing were chosen? I wonder... graemlins/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

[BUDDY]

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

Originally posted by Peter Ackerman:
I can say in my humble opinion, that it is only a matter of time before it fails. [/QB]Nevermind the complexity of trying create operational systems to run such an operation in hundreds of remote locations, where on Earth are they going to find even reletively compitent people to staff these frame shops?

Even if we all closed up tomorrow and went to work for them (Though I can say with certainty that I would be selling hot dogs on the street corner before I would go, and my guess is many of you would do something else as well), they would fall way short.

Finding the right people will be most likely be the down fall of anyone that tries this. Over time it may be possible, for someone with the time and money to design a training program to create framers. I am not so foolish to think it can't be done, but it won't be cheap or easy. (I actually have a theory as to how this could be done, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, you need to carefull with your ideas.)

Not to mention that I don't beleive this industry has the technological sophistication to do this and do it right.

WalMart is a world-class RETAILER. They are going to want relaible and complex systems to measure and track evertything. Sorry but I don't think they exhist. With all due respect, and I mean this sincerely, to the wonderful folks who provide our industry with software, I don't think any of it is ready for the WalMart level yet.

I do beleive however, that someone with the right resources and time could also create the technology to do this right, but there is still the issue of getting the people to sell it, build it, and service the consumer.

Like I said, I think it is plausable, but man it's a heavy lift. Is the potential pay off worth the enormous financial risk? People with bigger brains than mine must think so.

We'll see.....

Anyone know where I can get a good used hotdog steamer? :D

[Rick Granick]

Harry, I wouldn't worry about it. I hear that Don Rumsfeld has a plan to accomplish the whole thing very inexpensively and using far fewer people than you might expect..
;) Rick

[Rogatory]

Originally posted by Grumbler F.K.A. Harry:
WalMart is a world-class RETAILER. They are going to want relaible and complex systems to measure and track evertything. Sorry but I don't think they exhist. With all due respect, and I mean this sincerely, to the wonderful folks who provide our industry with software, I don't think any of it is ready for the WalMart level yet.Harry, I think you are right on the mark about WallyWorld, but they wouldn't buy ready made software, they would write their own.

Rick, that was good!

[Mike Labbe @ GTP]

They use the same tools most of us do. Most big box chains and franchises use custom flavors of Lifesaver, Specialtysoft, or Fullcalc. (Michaels, Aaron Bros, FastFrame, JoAnns, Hobby Lobby, Corners, AC Moore, etc)

I'm not sure which one Walmart uses...

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

Mike I have seen a couple versions of the ones you mentioned first hand. Used 2 specificaly for quite some time and they really don't work the way they should. I don't care what anyone says; they just don't.

Rick, we see how Rummie's plan is working so far. If they use that same approach we all have nothing to fear. "Use as few people as possible so the whole **** thing implodes.... and don't give them the tools they need to get the job done right"

The major diffrence is that Rumsfeld has troops that know what they are doing and do it very well (when their hands arne't tied that is). I doubt Wally will ever get their troops anywhere close...

[stshof]

The results of my trip to Madison, AL as promised! This is an inside store retail space (like the photo shop and beauty shop in most Walmarts) with a sign "Framing Us". Outside the store, there is a free standing display with a computer and lieberman software selling prints. The store is maybe 12' wide. On the left is a counter approx. 5' wide with a computer with Specialty Soft POS against the wall and several Wizard photo mats with a sign that they start at $7.88 and will cut them while you wait. On the right and back from the counter about a ft. is an approx. 8' false wall with about 500 frame samples - metal and wood(12 rolls of approx. 35-60 samples). No one came to counter area. We looked around for about 10 minutes. Frame samples didn't have #s I recognized and no prices. A couple of them looked like NDN frames I get from my distributor. No mat samples anywhere(even under the counter!) No glass samples. I finally went behind the counter. I could see a Fletcher wall glass cutter and another false wall blocked my view but it looked very small. I said "hello?" and a guy and gal came rushing out. I joked about how I probably shouldn't be behind the counter and immediately realized this was going to be tough. My police officer husband said they were hiding information - either they read my post and knew I was coming or they were briefed to not answer anybody's questions. Said they were a private company; not connected with Walmart at all. Said they didn't know prices; everything was in the computer. Said they didn't know what mat companies they used, either.(?) We started talking about the military and other topics and the guy went back to the back area again. We probably talked 10 minutes or so but the only other info I got was the female worked sales for years for Art Mart/Kendall/Hartcraft in Huntsville. They're a ready made, photo frame company. She said she quit for health reasons. We left and wandered around Walmart, ate a pretzel at a store inside, and probably spent a hour total there. No customers at FramingUs the whole time. The guy came back out for about 5 minutes and sat at the computer; the female talked to a check out clerk for about 10 minutes or so and then went outside and smoked a cigarette. graemlins/shrug.gif graemlins/icon45.gif

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

See....

People. It will be their downfall.

[Jerry Ervin]

How do they sell matboard without samples?

She really didn't want to tell you that it is Queen City Matboard. smile.gif

[stshof]

She said something lame about carrying them to the back so she could clean off the front counter but an hour later she still hadn't clean anything or return the samples to the front. I think you're probably right! :D :D

[Cliff Wilson]

You realize you have just made the regional manager (or whatever his title is) take a trip to Madison don't you! tongue.gif

[stshof]

graemlins/party.gif graemlins/party.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[Mecianne]

Sue, they make Michael's seem like a museum with conservators working behind the counter.

[chrish04]

in vegas the mats they use are crescent selects, at least that is what i was told

[stshof]

Originally posted by chrish04:
in vegas the mats they use are crescent selects, at least that is what i was told Are you curious enough to go check them out? I'd love to know if your impressions/experience is similiar! :D