Frames for artists...???

[Sarah Winchester]

When I took over this business, I visited many framers within 50 miles, to see what I could learn. A few towns over I ran into a one-man shop, the owner tries to come across as a curmudgeon, but he's really a sweet ol' poo. He has helped me very, very much. Without his advice I couldn't have done it.

But he does one thing that confuses me. He will order wood frames, joined, for area artists, non-standard sizes, from a distributor. He adds, maybe, $10 to $12 per frame. I'm not sure exactly
how much he adds. His theory is that artists are 'cheap' and won't pay higher prices, and as long as he doesn't have to do anything to the frame. The driver unloads it, and puts it in the rack. He figures $10-$12 is better than nothing, and he's making the local big box look ridiculous. Of course, anything else he does, he gets a good mark, and he does have several top line artists that he does complete framing services for.
So my question is...do you think $100-$120 a week profit (he sells about 10 frames a week to 'cheap' artists) is a good add-on? Several artists near me, buy the cheapest frames they can find. What are your opinions??

[JFeig]

If the shell costs you say $25 or less........a $10 profit is on the low side, but ok as a DEAL for an artist. However if the frame costs $50 or more a $10-12 profit is just foolish from a business standpoint. You have operating costs that are not being covered (phone, heat and light, insurance, liability of what happens if the frame is damaged in your shop, credit card fees.........etc). There has to be a limit of "charity" graemlins/smileyshot22.gif for an artist given by a person in business.

[johnny]

It's as difficult for an artist to swallow a $175.00 bill for framing as it is for me to have them complain and do everything they can to get the price down when their painting will sell for $3000.00, therefore we don't get along.

Just had one get mad and leave forever (again) about a month ago. It's because I learned to stay away from this mess of disjointed anecdotes:

1. Discount the framing.
2. Since they are giving me business, don'tcha know, put their artwork on the wall on commish.
3. Oh, that bill I owe you? Just keep that piece of art. It's already on your wall!
4. Where is that piece of art? Did it sell? Where is my money?
5. Varient on 4... where is that piece of art I had here (never was here, paperwork be damned) If you don't have it you must have sold it. Where is my money?
6. I'll pay you for the framing after the art show when I get paid.
7. You sold my art for $700.00? You framed it right? Give me the $700 because you made money on framing. (A photographer pulled this on me after the fact and before he delivered the requested product.) This one is the quickest way to get blacklisted here.

Anyway, I currently don't frame for any artists. Most of them buy from a local distributor and tell me my prices are out of line. That's why I buy from a distributor that won't sell to people's homes.

To answer your question... I've done it although not to that extent. I wouldn't do it again.

[Bob Doyle]

Oh Johnny, too funny! (ToTallY)

Gotta love these artists! Got one who wanted to know the "final" price if he bought 100 16 x 20's and 50 24 x 30.

Worked out a price, showed it to him, and he then wants to order the 150 frames but do it 2 at a time! Gee why can't I give him the same price? Oh then just make the frames and I'll pay for them one at a time when I pick them up as I need them(!)

Oh wait buddy, let me stock your store, buy your canvases and paints while I'm at it!

[elsa]

We have one that comes in all the time for us to cut her mats and fit her work into Ikea fames.
She always uses the same mat color-(antique white) and we have to call her when the mat is cut so she can position the mounting!!

Oh well she ain't nearly so bad, nice lady actually..but dang!! she does lovely work and I am dying to put some color on it!!--not to mention a nicer frame!!

Is it artist season yet?

Elsa

[OzDave]

How many have the customer that comes in with the instructions from the artist on how to frame their artwork. (Thin frame nothing else), or the customer comes in to frame something else and tells you about the artwork they bought which the artists said it shouldn't have a frame around it?

I have a price for artists (as many people will ask them who they get their framing from) but its set, no further discounts, and payment is always upfront if they want the artist price. If they dont like the price, then I dont waste my time. When I first started in the business, the old owner told me about artists, but I didn't believe him. I learnt the hard way.

I believe there is more than setting a cost then just the percentage of profit from that individual sale. eg giving a good price to a customer that give you a good rap, or is influencial to others will bring bigger profits from the customers they told. Of course it can backfire. I had one customer who bought art of an artists, who told them about the "artist price" and then expected the same discount, because the artist told them to ask for it.

[EllenAtHowards]

If it is strictly 'pass through', steady, promptly paid and no hassles it is fine. If it is 'here's a nick, there's a flaw, everywhere a fuss, fuss' then it isn't worth it. Everyone makes choices.

[johnny]

There are some point in this thread that I can ToTaLly affirm.

They will ask for a quantity discount and only want one or two like Bob said. They rarely return for the rest.

They love cheap frames.

They can be picky - the artist I mentioned earlier was getting something matted and shrink wrapped and we were redoing it for a 4th time - this time to make the mat opening 1/16" of an inch wider. Buh-bye. Although she eventually walked out in a huff because I refused to put her artwork on the walls that day. I never got to tell her that I'm never redoing something 4 times again.

They will absolutely send their customers in and tell them to ask for their discount without so much as discussing it with you first. Some, not all but enough, will also except to frame every personal thing for their friends and family with their artists discount. Finally, if you let it get this far, they will start sending in people to frame their personal stuff with the artists discount. Business is business and you may think it's worth it, unless the discount is as large as you are considering here. Basically, it eventually leads to word-of-mouth couponing with some people.

It's too bad too, because I like artists and I can empathize with their situation. They want to provide a framed, completed piece to their customers and many of them don't charge enough. If an artist is at an art-in-the-park kind of show the people who are looking at their art aren't going to add $150 to the price in their minds because it's framed nicely, the public at large doesn't put that kind of value on frames. It can be a tough spot for an artist to be in.

And, you know, I actually do frame for some artists now that I think of it. They are transparent though. Their discount is coded in to Lifesaver software. They don't have to mention it. They frame each piece nicely. They don't make trouble. If they bring a final customer in they pay full price and the artist gets a credit equal to the amount of the discount because that's is the whole purpose of the artist disount - it is to afford the artist a way to sell a framed work of art at it's true value and make a profit on the frame. Too many artists use the artist discount as a way to provide their customers with a frame they will get cheaper than if they framed it with me.

I don't currently have any problem artists left. They all frame in their home now or someplace else. A while back they discovered some local distributors, one in particular. One started framing out of their home for themselves and some of the other artists. She was a customer. She eventually put a blatant add in the local newspaper "Why pay a lot for frames from a store with the overhead of rent and employees? Come to my home for professional picture framing!" Now her attention has turned to flowers and she's moved on from framing to running rampant over that market from her home. Anyway, word spread across the local artist community that they could get their frames wholesale and one by one my customers fell away, even with a 20% artist discount. Many became upset that I was overcharging so much.

Pffft.

[JFeig]

Sometimes artists are their own worst enemies when it comes to framing and framing prices.

How many times have you gone to an art show and an artist has the art priced with and without framing. The framed price is quoted at the retail price of the art plus the actual cost of the framing materials (or just about). They don't even get minimum wages rates for the time it takes to put a frame together.

[equineart]

I went to Art In The Park a couple of years ago and saw some wonderful pieces by an artist in her late 30's. We were talking about her work and she asked what I thought. I told her it was wonderful but the framing was hurting her sales. At the end of the show she had sold 2 prints in shrink wrap and was beyond mad at the world. She made me an offer if I would take everything. I paid her, packed it all up and took it back to the gallery and trashed all the frames. Over time I reframed everything and sold it. She came in last year and wanted to show a couple of pieces to a friend of hers. I told her I had sold everything. She told me I owed her money since I had sold it all and she had given me such a good deal. I told her to start letting me do her framing and she could raise her prices 25%. She did and now has raised her prices 50% and sends me customers and brings me FOOD!! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[Rick Granick]

Nice story, Equine. That was a win/win deal.
...Or should I say a win/place/show deal?
:cool: Rick

[GUMBY, GCF]

How many times have you gone to an art show and an artist has the art priced with and without framing. The framed price is quoted at the retail price of the art plus the actual cost of the framing materials (or just about). They don't even get minimum wages rates for the time it takes to put a frame together Yes I know this!~I used to show twenty + years ago. The reason I did it was, People would always want to barter you down without the frame. So I just priced it where I wanted it and then only offered to take the small amont off for the framing!~ They were paying me to put it on then take it back off!~ It just looked like I was giving the framing away!~ Marketing 101 most people then took it with the framing!~

[Rick Granick]

oops..wrong thread. Carry on.

[EllenAtHowards]

One of my artist friends, when asked what the piece would be without the frame, says "The frame is my gift to you. It will protect the art until you can get the framing redesigned." PS: She does her own framing, but I love her like a sister anyway. She does it well with good quality materials. Buys her frames from American Frames. Does black metal, white rag mat (which she DOES buy from me), and plexiglass. I get to do her major not-for-sale pieces, though.

[framah]

My really good artists who sell in the thousands have FINALLY realized that if the piece is done right, they can charge more. One went from selling his pastels at $2,000 to, after paying me $500 to do it right, selling the same size pieces for $4,000. It is all in the final presentation. That's the hardest thing to convince an artist. But, once you've done it, they quickly realize a much greater profit.

The really low end artist will always be a problem as they have no money and quite often, no confidence in their art. I tell them if they spend an extra hundred to frame it right, they should be able to add at least double that onto the price of the art. A good artist gets 10 to 15% discount on their framing, The low end artist pays full retail as there isn't enough profit on their job, usually just a mat into their Wal-Mart frame, to give a discount.

[printmaker]

Originally posted by Sarah Winchester:
...
So my question is...do you think $100-$120 a week profit (he sells about 10 frames a week to 'cheap' artists) is a good add-on? ... What are your opinions?? Wow. As a full time artist and former gallery/frame shop owner, I find this "framing for artists" debackle so tempting in which to delve... But if I do, I'd go on for many pages so ...

Let's just address the original question:

If you're "sweet ol' poo of a curmudgeon" is actually doing what he thinks he's doing -generating an additional $100-$120 a week profit he otherwise wouldn't have realized - regardless of the objections of others, he's doing gr8!

On the other hand, he could inadvertantly be shooting himself in the foot, losing potential increased profits by offering the cheapo's a fast and easy way out of doing things "properly"...

Without all the facts, to which we will not be privy, 'twill be impossible to determine.

But boy oh boy, would I like to add my 2 cents worth on this "framing for artists" thing. Oh well. graemlins/shutup.gif

[TerryW]

One of the artists I frame for belongs to the Georgia O'Keefe school of framing: no mat, thin black frame, the art is what people are buying, don't you know. Another (who is also an interior designer) wants her paintings framed to match her customer's living room. The first artist is picky and always wanting to get a better deal. The second wants to satisfy her customers, and so the price is secondary to the total effect of the frame package and the art. Which one do you suppose I prefer to work with? And which one am I more willing to offer a discount to when she chooses a discontinued frame that I happen to have just enough to do her watercolor?
The thing some artists (and others, too) don't realize about back-scratching is that it must be mutual experience, otherwise it is simply abuse AND bad business...

[johnny]

Printmaker,
I'd be very interested in reading your views. I can only learn from them. As much as I think I can empathize with artists, I would love to better understand things. Especially since you've lived both sides...

[Mecianne]

I am so small and new that an extra $400-$500 a month would be great, if all I had to do was place an order. But on the other hand, there are so many other points being made here as to why this could be a very, very bad thing in the long run. Demanding discounts isn't cool. I wonder if they ask the clerk at Wal-Mart for a discount on a metal poster frame just because they are an artist? And I wonder what the response would be if they did. In my opinion, framers get abused way too much. We just have to learn not to take it.

[Grumbler F.K.A. Harry]

I am in favor of taking care of your local artists, but at least double your money. GEEESHHHH!

graemlins/icon21.gif graemlins/icon21.gif Hey, I'm a framer and I would'nt pay for this stuff....... it's way too expensive..... and hardly worth it! graemlins/icon21.gif graemlins/icon21.gif

[Terry Hart cpf]

I sure wouldn't single out artists. I like artists, in fact I think I might like to be one when I grow up. I don't think generaly they are any different than any other customers. There are poor and rich, good, bad and ugly and all points inbetween. i don't like being taken advantage of either, ie, losing $ so someone else can profit. But I also hate to lose a sale. I think the best policy (it kills me to hear myself giving "good business" advice)is always to have available a wide range of choices and flexibility to meet as many needs as possible. Some artists just need to protect thier work. It will be bought as decoration and reframed to suit the buyer at some point. Other artists consider the frame an extention of the work and may need something created from scratch.As always learn to identify needs and fill them. Your friend found something that works for him, I don't know if it would work for me. I always look for deals. 99% of our frames are ordered chopped but we pick up length of closeouts etc for those "deals". I picked up 2000 feet of misc. raw wood mldg for a couple hundred bucks. I can mark it up 50 times and the artist loves it. We both win. Good luck.

[mona]

After my first few months in biz I had an artist who was consistently dropping 300 to 500 a month. She asked if I would give an artist discount, what was I thinking I know better its opening a can of worms, but I am hungry for new business and developing good relationships. So I said yes 10%. She came back 2x in the next 6mths both times with her own mat board----spent less than a 100 bucks and wanted it all done will she waited. So now my answer to artists who ask is I am a brand new business and can not afford to discount at this time.

[mona]

Just had to add to my last post the artist came in again wanted custom framing and mats cut for her by the next day. Which I did, then as we were putting her jobs in her car she told me she couldn't wait to pick up the mini cooper her husband bought her for her birthday! I am so glad she gets 10% off.

[Rosalyn]

Artist calls. From what I can make out (he is barely talking in complete sentences) he wants cheap frames.

"Are your prices pretty good?" I reply, "Good compared to what? I'm the only one in town" -- (they are good for me)

He has some great art (I bet) and could he come by and look at my stuff. He doesn't want anything very expensive (already flags waving)

We meet. When I see him I want to run. Black clothes, tatoos, spiked hair (or maybe not combed in days I don't know) He doesn't bring the art. He looks at my samples and says, "I don't want anything fancy because the frame just takes away from the art." (okay Buddy, hit the road)Then adds, "I don't want to put any frame on my stuff but the gallery insists."

All I can think is how stupid he looks with six earrings in each ear, nose ring, lip ring, tongue ring and that spike stiking out from his bottom lip. "Gees no wonder you can't talk (despite your obvious recreational pharmaceutical habit)"

Says he has about 20 or more 8x10s ready because that was all he could buy at WalMart (there's the door).

If this deal in New York goes through (hahahahahaha)

In the end he orders (stupid me) an assortment of neilson 8x10s. I still haven't seen any art work.

The frames come in. In the mean time I have cut several 8x10 pieces of foam core to fill the frame up. I asked how thick his 'art' was and what kind of material it was.

Turns out to 1/8 plexi. He spray paints on plexi. "Or it could be 1/4." great

I wonder what a buyer would do with an 8x10 piece of unframed spray painted plexi. Would he hang it with a screw through it into the wall since there was no frame?

When I am looking at the order I notice all the miters are bad. I put a few together and the corners have HUGE gaps. I mean HUGE!

I called and reordered then called the artist. Of course he was in a rush for them when he ordered so I wanted to tell him of the delay.

He hem-haws around and finally admits he has no money, no gallery and no place to go with his art. (From what I can piece together from his fragmented sentences)

I asked, "So what you are saying is you don't want any of the frames - correct?" He answers in some off the wall strange way.

I said, "Maybe I can call and cancel the order. If I call right now. They said they would put a rush on it."

He said something else, I couldn't quite comprehend.

I said, "If I call and cancel the order right now you will have no frames. Is that what you want me to do? You won't have any frames."

He said, "Will I owe you anything?" I thought I'll pay you to go away.

I said, "No. But you won't have any frames either." I finally cancelled the order.

I still have a dozen 8x10 pieces of foam core though.

I will NEVER order anything for him again.

I don't understand why 'artists' think they should get a break. Do they call the electric company and ask for a break because they are an artist? Do they ask for a break at the checkout in the grocery store?

I don't ask United for a break because I'm a starving framer.

[printmaker]

Originally posted by johnny:
Printmaker,
I'd be very interested in reading your views. I can only learn from them. As much as I think I can empathize with artists, I would love to better understand things. Especially since you've lived both sides... Okay, Johnny.
In light of yours and Rosalyn's postings:
"I don't understand why 'artists' think they should get a break. Do they call the electric company and ask for a break because they are an artist? Do they ask for a break at the checkout in the grocery store?
I don't ask United for a break because I'm a starving framer." ...

Stay tuned... Just finished (yet another) 12 hour work day (if you can call what I do work ;) ), but when I get a chance to relax in front of the computer for a while graemlins/kaffeetrinker_2.gif , I will post my 2 cents worth on framing for "artists".

[Rosalyn]

Printmaker - before you make me regret ever having posted - let me say this:

Not all artists are like this. I hope. But thus far all the ones I've dealt with have had this mind set. Each and every one asked for a 'deal'.

I just feel it is unfair to ask for a deal. Any where, any time.

I haven't lost any potential profit because in the end the artist pulled out, always. I even cut them 'a deal' and got stuck with stock. Stupid on my part for ordering without collecting 1/2 up front, yes I know.

So go easy on me. I don't mean to offend you as an artist or as a person. I've just been burned enough.

[Jay H]

I have asked United for a deal when I was setting up my shop. They wanted my future business and give me one. And it worked. I have been considering giving LJ 8x8’ of my wall for their very best mouldings. I asked for a deal and was denied. So they missed out. A local supplier said they would be glad to help me.

The reason why framers should ask for “deal”, and get them, is because we will never stop buying. We are a perpetual customer and the more we buy the more supplier want our business because we are a never-ending source of revenue for them.

Artist and designers CAN be a similar source of income for us. They never get done framing. They might frame more pieces at a time and more often than even our very best “regular” customer.

I think a translation of “I need a deal” is “Do you really want my business”. I think its very dangerous to gaze down your nose and say, “I’m sorry we don’t give discounts” because that customer will hear “I’m sorry I don’t really want your business.” At least that’s what I heard when I was told “NO”. I don’t think we need to give them the moon but a show of good faith to a customer that could potentially cover you up with work is in line here.

If they are still unhappy or you’re not making good money on it, tell them to not let the door hit em where the good Lord slit em.

[Terry Hart cpf]

Yeah, this would be a great business if it weren't for the **** customers. Sarah, I hope you're getting the advice you're looking for. Keep an old stick of moulding around to beat off all those nasty deal seekers. Or cut that stick into a frame and sell it. Your choice. Good luck. Hope your new venture does well for you. I'm sure along the way you'll find what works and doesn't for you. You seem like a sweet person, I'm sure that will work to your advantage. As some have pointed out there are always some who would try and take advantage of that (and not just artists!). Again, my advice would be to offer as many choices as possible. Just be clear as to what can and cannot be had for a given price and stick to it. Consistancy is important.

[Less]

I give artists and designers 20%

For artists that can give me volume, I will buy box. I can drop the price (frame only) by 50% or more. Glass, mounting, fitting, etc. 20%.

I am slowly attracting a lot of artists. My frame price generally falls close to wholesale join cost. I usually still make 300%.

Everyone is happy.

[printmaker]

Originally posted by Rosalyn:
Printmaker - before you make me regret ever having posted - let me say this:

Not all artists are like this. I hope. But thus far all the ones I've dealt with have had this mind set. Each and every one asked for a 'deal'.

I just feel it is unfair to ask for a deal. Any where, any time.

I haven't lost any potential profit because in the end the artist pulled out, always. I even cut them 'a deal' and got stuck with stock. Stupid on my part for ordering without collecting 1/2 up front, yes I know.

So go easy on me. I don't mean to offend you as an artist or as a person. I've just been burned enough. Not to worry. I'm not offended at all, Rosalyn. And yes, we've all been burned. Most of what I would say has already been covered in bits and pieces, however:

Firstly, as an artist, I sympathize with other artists. Before I started doing my own framing (about a quarter century ago) I dealt with a number of framers, both "wholesale" and "retail". My discounts from each were quite substantial), but so were my orders.

As a professional artist, I would never have considered the paltry 10-15% “artist discount” offered by many framers. I could not have survived on those margins, nor could many, I suspect…

Of course, it could be argued that, a PROFESSIONAL ARTIST should "make his/her money" solely on the artwork. However, is this not like asking a framer to make his/her money solely on the moulding - and to "throw in" the matting, glazing, backing etc at a marginal mark-up?

Just as I expect additional discounts from my suppliers because of the volume we purchase, so I would expect a substantial discount from any framer with whom I would deal (if we didn’t do our own).

I'm not suggesting that anyone here offer a discount to anyone. I understand margins, as well as the often heard, % off of what?”. If a framer could not afford to give me, what I felt was, a good discount, I’d find someone who could and would. After all, just as a PROFESSIONAL FRAMER must make his/her margins to survive, so must the PROFESSIONAL ARTIST.

On the other hand, as a professional framer, I well appreciate how irritating it can be dealing with most who call themselves "artists". These are, for the most part, weekend painters who, now and then, through luck or osmosis, will occasionally sell a piece. They oftentimes take up proportionally more time than they should, seeking the cheapest framing at the cheapest prices. If I don’t give them a “good discount” (which, by the way, I DO NOT), they will simply waste away their days, flitting from framer to framer, until some “kind soul” (read “sucker”) buys into their promises of future tremendous framing volume. There are astute methods of handling these people, but this is a topic for another time and posting.

Over the years, we’ve had wonderful, long term, profitable dealings with real professional artists to whom I’ve always offered a “substantial” discount. We’ve also learned common sense techniques in dealing with the amateur discount seekers to help eliminate wasted time whilst closing as many sales as possible with these folks.

Today, as I try to finish off the edition upon which I’m working, I look at a pile of approximately 290 (of my own) pieces, waiting to be framed. And even with our CMC spitting out mats left and right, I cannot help but wonder how much easier (and productive!?!) life would be if we had someone else to do our framing….

IMHO, both framers and artists are "a dime a dozen"; it’s hard to find a really good one. If you happen to be a "good framer", keep your eyes open … if you are lucky enough to find a “good artist”, treat him/her well. You could find yourself in a long-term, mutually profitable relationship!

[OzDave]

As no one else had replied to what for me was a long awaited post, as I waited for a view from printmaker, and "the other side" so I could understand a bit better. The most important thing I picked out of this was the defignition between an "artist" and a weekend painter. It gave me food for thought Thanks for the insight.

[Sharonx]

I would never order frames or moulding for someone when they hadn't brought in the artwork. I have been burned too many times. It has taken me 10 years ( I am a slow learner) but I want 50 down unless it is a great customer I have worked with for years. The materials aren't ordered until I see the money and the finished work doesn't leave my shop until paid in full.