CLEAN GLASS, PACKAGED

[TOM'S TREASURES]

HI THERE,

JUST WONDERED WHERE I CAN GET PACKAGED, CLEEN GLASS, DELIVERED TO MY SHOP, IN VERMONT, BY THE CASE?

[Ron Eggers]

I did a Google search for Vermont suppliers and all I could come up with was maple syrup.

Often the distributors who sell you mouldings and framing supplies will have paper-packed, pre-washed glass. Usually, it's Tru-Vue, but there are some alternatives. If any of your vendors have a delivery route in your area, check with them first.

Otherwise, check with paint and glass suppliers. If you're seriously off the beaten path, you might be faced with a choice of buying enough quantity to make it worth somebodies trip, or taking a little trip yourself.

Today we have vendors tripping over each other to deliver glass in our area, but when I started out, I used to borrow a friends cargo van and drive about 30 miles to pick up glass, and then haul it up three flights of stairs. (I never had to walk ten miles through the snow to get to school, though.) After I overloaded that van and bottomed it out, I looked a little harder for delivery and found it.

Welcome to The Grumble. Many general questions (like this one) will get more attention on the main Grumble forum. Please unlock your caps-lock key, as many of us are cross-eyed from straining to read the 1/64" marks on our rulers.

[gemsmom]

The major distributors I know of in New England are Don Mar, Framer's Market, Armel, and Larson. You are 3 1/2 hours from the closest one, Larson. Distributors like their stops close to one another so free delivery can be somewhat profitable for them. From I know of Vermont, very little is close to anything, so I'll take a stab and say delivery to where you are is probably not a option. You could still call these companies and see if you could work something out-like meet them at their closest delivery point, or a half-way point, and pick up your goods.

[Bill Henry-]

I was going to suggest trying to find distributors out of Albany or Syracuse, but I did a Mapblast search for Pittsford, and, man, you are in the middle of "you cahnt get thayre from heah."

I have the feeling that unless you go to the big city and pick up supplies youself, you gonna be plum outa luck.

[Ron Eggers]

There are two things that trouble me.

Why were so many Civil War battles fought in national parks and monuments?

And why are so many framers so far off the beaten path that they can't get glass and supplies?

Doesn't that also make it hard to get customers?

[David N Waldmann]

Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
There are two things that trouble me.
We should all be so lucky smile.gif
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
Why were so many Civil War battles fought in national parks and monuments?Isn't that where the expression "kill two birds with one stone" came from?

[Bill Henry-]

Tom (I assume you are Tom of Tom's Treasures),

I just remembered that Don Mar (http://www.donmarcreations.com/) makes trips once a month (or used to) to the upper wilds of Maine almost to the New Brunswick border. Their web site is lousy, but there will be a contact number for you to call.

They have a distribution center in Connecticuit somewhere and maybe they'll tool up I-89 for you ... maybe. Give them a jingle.

[Warren Tucker]

Hey, this guy wants a _case_ of glass. A light case weighs 2,000lbs, a heavy case twice that. Cases just about have to be delivered by a boom truck and it's be nice if the consignee has a fork lift. There's s company in Rock Hill, SC, that could supply washed glass by the case. The freight to Maine would probably be reasonable but if the glass is shipped common carrier, the receiver would have to have a fork lift and an old pallet to protect the case as it's leaned back. BTW, there's a shot of a boom truck unloading a case of glass on our web site under backroom. The best bet would be to call a big glass company like Binswanger and ask them if they know anyone who washes and repackages glass in the region and go from there. Warren

[Ron Eggers]

Warren, I'm sure you're right, but - when most of us say a "case" - what we really mean is a 50 ft box.

I'll bet that's what Tom is looking for. If not, he'll let us know, right Tom?

[JudyN]

Years ago when we used glass by the BIG case ..the glass people called it a TUB of glass. Now we only use Tru-Vu UV in the boxes.
Oh and it wasn't clean....or UV

[ 11-28-2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: JudyN ]

[TOM'S TREASURES]

Hi there,

Thank you all, for your input..

I will go to a glass place in Albany and see what I can do, good idea.

As far as getting there from here, I must do it before the snow falls or wait till spring. a Vermont case of glass is about 15 pieces of glass, we do not have boom trucks, just boom boxes and just got those.

Hope you all had a good bird and the best of luck in our holiday season!!

Sincerly,

Tom

[Warren Tucker]

I'd think that anyone who has a hard time getting glass delivered should look into glass by the case. Depending on how much glass he used, he'd probably only get a delivery twice a year. We used to buy glass by the box in lots of 20 boxes and getting a delivery was a RPITA. Each box had to be handled, usually twice. With a case, we only handle one case and that's it.

You need a place to store the glass and means of getting the glass into your shop. I'd even consider renting a storage shed and having the glass deliverd there. Bring the lites to your shop as you need them.

90%of the glass we sell isn't uv glass; it's just ss float. I have a big house with plenty of framed art but not a single piece is framed with uv glass. Top quality art shouldn't be composed of fugitive inks/paints and mostly, isn't. Maybe 10% of the stuff that comes thru our shops gets uv glass, mostly at the customers' request.

If anyone is interested in buying cases, 36 x 60 is the most common case (and most likely to be in stock when you order); a case costs something like $540 delivered. There's usually 1500 ft/sq in a case. They vary a little. If i only used 1500 ft/sq of glass a year, the idea of buying one case and being done with it is attractive.

We buy the powder coated glass and wash it ourselves. Years ago we had a contract for 600 framed pieces 30 x 36 (neat, eh, just one cut per 36 x 60 lite). Everything was easy except washing the glass. We built a glass washer that turns out very good washed glass and it's been used ever since. We can wash 30 lites at a time with it in less than 5 minutes longer than it takes to load it. We've built another one so both stores have one and both get cases of glass. BTW, no BB is going to have a glass washer at each location. Advantage to us.

If you have a hard time getting glass, consider buying it by the case and you'll only have a hard time occasionally. Some companies will even let you buy a case and store it for you; sending you the glass as you need it. We've been buying cases for 20 years safely but a 2000lb case of glass is dangerous if it's on wheels and unstable. If you're considering buying by the case, give me a call and we can go over the details.

[B. Newman]

Gee Warren, some of us are framers, then some of us are
F-R-A-M-E-R-S! :eek:

Betty

[ 11-29-2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: B. Newman ]

[Ron Eggers]

This is interesting to me. Maybe this thread actually BELONGS on the business forum.

I love glass 'cause I know it's the one item in my shop that is absolutely going to turn in a reasonable period. Artcare fome is the next closest thing.

I stock maybe 20 boxes and only replace them when they are nearly empty. I carry every size of UV (since most of the inks I frame ARE fugitive) and minimal quantities of non-glare, A/R, museum and some other varieties.

I suppose I could use a case (about 30 boxes) in a reasonable time, but I like having it clean, paper-packed and in as many precut sizes as possible.

Warren, I get irritated with you from time-to-time, but it's very interesting to me to hear how a framing operation very different from mine operates.

[Dermot]

I have a very small framing operation….and I’m with Warren…..it is simply a waste of time buying glass in small lots…buy it by the case then you only end up handling glass once or twice a year……BIGGGGGGGGGGG time saving…………….BIGGGGGGGGGG cost saving…..no messing…..job done in one go.

BTW the powder that is on glass is coconut powder…….a good domestic solution of washing up liquid made up with water will remove most of it on the first wipe (I use Fairy washing up liquid)then use your regular glass cleaner......quick easy no messing.


Rgs

Dermot

[JudyN]

" 90%of the glass we sell isn't uv glass; it's just ss float"


No wonder WT can sell his stuff so cheap. He is using ss glass at BIG savings. Thats the style of his biz though and it works for him.
Like I say we used it years ago ( and it was a lot cheaper to buy several tubs of ss glass a year) but our framing turned to the "high end" which means NO regular glass on ANYTHING.
Arts DOES fade under single strength glass. Just put some regular ss glass and some UV in the same frame stick it in a window and watch the ss side fade.

[Warren Tucker]

All we clean the powder off with is water. We hose off the lites and let 'em dry and they come out real clean. A few swipes and they're ready for the frame. Commercial jobs don't get the swipes.

Our Giclees are pretty resistent to uv light; they'll show noticable fading after 60 years of display, and according to the Wilhelm Institute most of that fading will be due to ozone and other atmospheric contaminats.

Most of the high end framing we do doesn't involve glass; it's mostly oils in closed corner frames. Our bread and butter framing is diplomas, inexpensive prints, water colors, commercial stuff. My experience is uv light isn't a big issue in most homes; certainly not in mine. We've got a set of silk screens we framed 22 years ago that have been hanging in a stair well that show no sign of fading (we've got another set stored in an archival box).

I imagine that 22 years is a longer life span than most of the stuff leaving our shop is going to enjoy. People redecorate, and what we sell is really decorative, not fine art. All that said, we sell a fair amount of uv glass; usually 2 boxes a week arrive. I buy fairly expensive prints, but I haven't considered uv glass. It's sort of like my new roof; it's a 40 year roof. I'll be long dead before that roof gives any trouble.

While I like art, I don't worship it and see no reason to want to perserve most of it forever, just long enough to enjoy it. Warren

[Bob Carter]

I think Warren is simply offering an alternative to a buying problem.

We, too, buy glass in pallet. But, we do spring for paper-packed lites. The slight additional cents/sq ft greatly outweighs the additional labor expense for most of us to wash the glass.

But, we shouldn't deride him because "he is so cheap" because he uses mostly regular glass. I was speaking to an un-named glass person that said that "non-treated" glass represented around 85% of the product line. If those numbers are way inaccurate, some of the industry lurkers could correct.Of course, they wished those percentages would change because if the same number of lites were sold, their overall business woukld increase substantially.

However, they recognized that instead of assuming that there would be no drop off in numbers of lite sales; there would , in fact, be a reduction in units sold because of price resistance. And, as such, they offered regular glass in a major way because they were simply offering what their clients were selling and that was what the market required.

I suspect that Warren is doing the same. He probably doesn't think he is too cheap, but I'll bet he thinks a lot of you are too expensive.

These philosophical questions are often best answered by the consumer. They vote with their dollars in alarming clarity. Sometimes , we just have to listen with the same clarity.

Take the extreme: Would we make a philosophical approach that we will offer only the best glazing option-Museum Glass? What do we think the impact would be on not only our business, but the overall health of the glass manufacturer?

The obvious answer? The glass manufacturer will sell a full range of options at price points to satisfy the widest possible range of clientele.

They simply won't make a business decision based on a purely philosophical point of view. They might market to death their premium product line (for the obvious additional dollars involved), but bet the farm the aren't about to turn their back on other items in their line that round out the line.

We shouldn't either.

But to stengthen Warren's point, you could always ask for a pallet of UV treated glass or a pallet of Museum Glass. In either case, it would provide substantial savings on a per lite basis.

Those same buying advantages could still be turned into significant selling advantages. And I think that is the lesson we ought to take from Warren's advice

[Warren Tucker]

Bob, I don't know what the price difference between powder coated glass and washed glass is, but I imagine it's significant. Pallet glass is a different commodity than case glass. Im my experience, pallet glass has been repackaged whereas case glass has only been handled where it's made. Our price varies between .32 and .36 a ft./sq. What does washed glass cost?

As to the labor involved in washing glass, it's minimal if you have access to a simple glass washer. The powder coated glass is very clean in the case, just coated with powder which rinses off readily with water. My guess is that 85% of the labor cost of getting glass in a frame is cutting it, 15% cleaning.

Labor has been a big issue with us but we've mostly solved the problems: our warehouse program for finding moulding, moulding racks with over 200 bins, Wizard mat cutter, Cassesse CNC v nailer and Pistorius double miter saws. The one area where labor is still killing is waiting on customers. It's common to walk into one of the shops and see 3 people waiting on customers, two of which aren't going to buy anything. I can't see anyway to speed customer service up without appearing calculating and crass so we're just enduring. This has been a problem from the beginning and I think it's intractable. But even so, we get everything done on time; there's still plenty of slack.

[Bob Carter]

Hi Warren-I'm only familiar with glass in pallets, but they do have PPG labels on them and the local glass vendor (Gardner Glass) says they come from the mill as we get them. My local glass man only knows them by pallets.

They weigh a ton and 24x36 usually has around 230 lites, if that helps.

He says the powder is actually a silicone-based powder and it is a bugger to clean. My framers would revolt if I ever went back to powder.

We pay .38 cents/sq ft plus that fuel charge surcharge that never seems to go away.

We split our duties in our operations-framers in the back, sales designers up front. I think personalities lend themselves to do one job better than the other; it's up to us to figure where the talents lies. Most people are simply better at one than the other; rarely is one person equally adept at both. Effeciencies come from the right person doing the right job. It's not always easy to determine where to start them, but it's pretty easy to determine where they belong

[TOM'S TREASURES]

Hi All,

Again, thank you, for all of your input on the clean glass issue.

I really only wanted 50 sq. ft. boxed glass in a varity of sizes. I frame but only 5 to 10 jobs a week as I have an antique and neat stuff shop which is 90% of my business.

I will take Warrens advice and first wash the glass off with water, then clean it for the frame.

You all have been very helpful and I will continue to watch the going - ons of this great forum.

Sincerely,

Tom