a customer's work is lost!?!

[printmaker]

I was asked by a customer what I thought - what would be "fair" in the following situation; I said I would have to consult my oh-so-wiser fellow grumblers before answering:

Her sister made a rather large and ornate cross stitch. The framer to whom she took it to be framed, lost the item...

Obviously, the cross stitch had little "real value" but, needless to say, it took about a zillion hours to complete. These are all the details with which I was provided. I have no idea what kind of insurance, if any, the framer has, nor do I know either party involved.

"These things" do, indeed, happen from time to time. Having said that, what do you, on our side of the framing table, think would be fair and reasonable compensation for such a loss?

[ERIC]

This is a tough situation, and because it's not your problem you may choose to not get too involved.

Beyond all the normal considerations for art, I know from my own expirence with a needlepoint that was damaged (when a car drove through my front window) that some insurance policies will only pay for the materials bought to make the piece. They do not feel that the total value of the finished piece includes the hours of labor to make it. They don't consider those hours an asset that can be replaced, and compensation would be considered wages which the artist was not at any time paid. A $29 kit that took 150 hours to do is worth $29 to the insurance company. NOTE - this was from the 3rd party policy from the driver of the car. I hope that a CAPAX type of policy will do better!

I have a client that does contract work and also does work for the companies that manufacture kits and she told me that she is 'well' paid at $2-3 per hour. Some contract work is as low as 50 cents an hour. That can be used to guess at any compensation the framer may give, though this seems really difficult to judge from here, or from where you are.

Ultimately, what moneies the framer gives to his customer is a business decision and may have nothing to do with what his policy will cover him for.

Not every liability that arises from being in business can be underwritten by an insurance company.

[ 11-16-2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: ERIC ]

[realhotglass]

G'day Ian,
To quote Eric . . .
"This is a tough situation, and because it's not your problem you may choose to not get too involved."
I would take this advice, having learned that if you do give any friendly feedback to the end customer concerned, it can well turn around to bite you on the proverbial.
Example.
A customer contacted me for advice on a convex portrait glass that had been broken by a frame shop in my local area.
Through normal conversation I commented that many of these reproduction convex glasses I make are for framers that have broken them in the restoration process etc, and if they contact me direct for a self breakage replacement, I normally really look after them with a much lower price. Didn't actually say all framers paid for them though.
This was twisted around to suit the customer and she went back to the framer saying that they have to replace the glass as this is the normal practice.
I was give a bit of a ear bash for this by the framer, their policy 'all care taken, but no responsibility'.
It taught me that the best reply to this type of situation is
"Each business will have its own policy on this, and I'm afraid I can't speak for them".
You should be able to give them a nice let down, perhaps say they should just go back and talk to the frame shop concerned.
Good luck with it.

[Ron Eggers]

"These things" do, indeed, happen from time to time. This is one of those things that should NEVER happen, and I don't understand how it could.

That being said, I'm guessing that any compensation will be up to the framer and not his/her insurance.

If you send a roll of film to Kodak and they lose it, they will replace the film but not the trip to New Zealand where you shot the film.

If the framer values the customer, or anyone she might ever talk to, he'll dig deep and find a way to make nice.

[David N Waldmann]

I guess it comes down to the definition of "art". I can hear your insurance adjuster now. "OK, this Rembrandt is a big one, so the canvas will probably be $25, another $50 for the oils, a couple of sticks of wood to stretch it - let's call it an even hundred bucks."

[Maryann]

Printmaker - stay out of the fray. There will be no winners in this one.

How can anyone say it does not have real value? If a cabinet maker were to spent 100 hours building a beautiful piece of furniture, is the value the cost of 5 or 6 boards? Of course not. The piece of cross stitch - assuming it is framed properly - will last for generations and has great value. Putting a $$ value on it? I'm not sure - but I would never settle for $29.

[ 11-17-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Maryann ]

[North Framer]

I had a customer's cross-stitch that we had just completed the framing for, stolen in a break-in 2 Christmas's ago. (To add insult to injury, she was dying of cancer and this was her gift to her mom to remember her!). I don't have the details handy, but the insurance settlement was approximately $5500, framing about $320, balance for the cross-stitch, guessing materials $200 and if memory serves me correct, $5000 for the labour, based upon 2 Guild averages (500 hours at $10/hour? - it was quite intricate and large). If you need more info on how this was arrived, post the request here.

[HannaFate]

Oh man! If my shop actually LOST someone's cross-stitch!

Time to polish the groveling skills.

If it was a completed kit, my first thought would be to offer to replace the finished kit with another finished kit. (doing the embroidery myself), and no charge for the frame, of course.

I do want to say, in the 25 or so years that I have been framing, I have only seen one case where a piece was just plain lost. And it was still there, just mislabled. It was found about six months after the customer had been settled with.

I have only seen a few cases where the piece was stolen, or destroyed. (I bet you can guess where the destruction happened!) Overall, we seem to be a reliable lot!

[Sharonx]

I had one such case in 10 years. A customer brought in a crocheted name. It was misplaced. I called the customer and told her I would have another made for her. I have a contract person who does great work and she made another. I framed the replacement. Before the customer came in to pick it up, I found the misplaced original. I gave the framed piece and the original to the customer at no charge. She is still a good customer and my cost was well worth the good will.

[Bill Henry-]

If you send a roll of film to Kodak and they lose it, they will replace the film but not the trip to New Zealand where you shot the film. I read about a professional photographer who was on a photo shoot in the Andes. He sent about 50 rolls to the processor in New Jersey and they lost them all.

He sued and recovered his entire trip plus the lost business he encountered for missing his deadline with the customer.

If I recall correctly, it cost the PhotoLuxe people about $14,000 for losing the order.

In August I spent two weeks in Tanzania. Before I sent my 30 rolls of slide to New Jersey, I had already picked out a lawyer.

[ 11-17-2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Bill Henry ]

[gemsmom]

Having made some very ornate and time-consuming stitchery myself. I thought very carefully about how I would feel (upset), what I would expect to be done, and what would be fair. I would not want the item re-stitched by someone else. Then it is no longer mine, just something someone made for me. Knowing me, after I calmed down, I would request the shop pay for new materials. I would re-stitch the cross stitch, keeping track of my time (I really would). I would have a pre-determined hourly rate agreed upon by the shop and myself, in writing, for which I would expect to be compensated. I would expect the framing done at no chagre. I do not care how much the insurance would cover. I would hold the shop responsible for taking care of things to my satisfaction.

Is there any chance this item was stolen from the shop?

[Reynard]

This thing happened to me last summer.A guy came in with a Ferrari poster signed by Michael Schumacher.He chose the frame and whatever and I wrote down all the details and his contact number.What I forgot to write down was that he took the poster away with him so he could show it to his friend and he would bring it back to get it fitted when I phoned him.

Gail and I spent a weekend turning the whole place upside down looking for this item .I normally put orders into the plan chest immediately after a customer has gone but on occasion if there is a queue of folks it doesn,t happen like that.I just couldn,t remember what had happened to this thing at all.

I decided to phone the guy up and I was prepared to grovel like never before.It was a cheap poster but it has Schumachers sig!

The traumatic bit about it was that the guy said nothing and came in that afternoon wielding the poster and pointed and laughed at me.I could have kissed him(but I don,t like beards).

But it really is the nightmare scenario.I really don,t know how I could have made it up to him or any other customer with an item like that.There is really nothing you can do in those circumstances other than hold your breath and hope that you have a reasonably laid back type of customer on your hands.

[Ron Eggers]

I think the framer who physically loses a customer's property (as opposed to misplacing it briefly) may have to offer that customer unlimited free framing for life - with the offer transferable to next-of-kin if the customer is older than, say, 55.

[printmaker]

Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
I think the framer who physically loses a customer's property (as opposed to misplacing it briefly) may have to offer that customer unlimited free framing for life - with the offer transferable to next-of-kin if the customer is older than, say, 55. I agree, Ron.

Having said that, I think I'll take the oh-so-wise advice of others and stay out of this one, all the while being thankful that this has never happened to me over the past 25+ years (yet).

Thanks all!

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by Maryann:
...How can anyone say it does not have real value?...Putting a $$ value on it? I'm not sure - but I would never settle for $29. More accurately, the cross stitch has no "established market value". That is, nobody could justify a price by citing other transactions.

Indeed, even at minimum wage rates, the price would be waaaay past what most consumers would be willing to pay for it.

[printmaker]

THE RESULTS ARE IN:

The cross stitch was done as a gift, and the stitcher really did not want to redo the piece. The frame shop offered to have the piece redone by another stitcher, plus frame it for free. The original stitcher happened to know the "other stitcher", and was suitably impressed by the quality of her work.

Don't you just love a happy ending!!!

Thanks again. :D

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by printmaker:
... The frame shop offered to have the piece redone by another stitcher, plus frame it for free. The original stitcher happened to know the "other stitcher", and was suitably impressed by the quality of her work... That seems like a fair settlement. I'd say the framer who lost it has acted responsibly.