It's not just us...

[B. Newman]

From Adam Hanft's column in Inc. (in part)

"The Inevitable Rise of the Entrepreneur"

The giants are squeezing out (or sucking up) competitors wherever you cast your gaze....Everyone has a favorite coffeehouse that was scrunched by Starbucks, a cozy bookstore juggernauted by Barnes & Noble. Pretty soon, every street in every city will look exactally the same. Stepford America.

Is that our fate? I don't think it is, I believe - and I don't think it's wishful thinking - that the cycle of massive corporate accretion we are in today is just that, a cycle.....I for one, believe that a snap in the other direction has already begun.

Goliaths create their own niche-filling Davids.

Of course, it isn't going to be easy for independents to shift the balance away from economic gigantism. They need to define their niches, market aggressively, target weakness without mercy."

And this is the best statement...

"NICHES ARE THE ACHILLES' HEEL OF GIANT BUSINESSES, WHICH ARE ORGANIZED FOR SCALE AND VOLUME."

He goes on to tell about Harp's Foods who have more than 3/4 of their stores within 100 miles of Bentonville, AR. Harp's advertise "Where's the butcher???" since of course Wal-mart doesn't have a bucher.

Most all industries have this situation. Some face it square on, some groan and moan, some roll over and play dead.

We (ourselves) are the only ones that can make that call.

Betty

[Ron Eggers]

Wal-Mart doesn't have a butcher, who's choppin' up all that meat?

[Ron Eggers]

Never mind.

It's probably the kid from the hardware department.

[B. Newman]

Forget serious I guess. I think I'll keep my article reading to myself.

Betty

[wshnbig]

Thank you, Betty, for the lead. I'll find the article and read it also.

[Sharonx]

Thanks for the encouraging words Betty. I believe we are seeing a shift in consumer thinking. I have a lot of people in my store that tell me they are so tired of the same large discounters. Once you have been in one impersonal Wal-Mart, you have been in them all. A lot of people tell me thay prefer to shop unique smaller shops. The mall in our town is all but dead. That tells me something about the shopping habits of todays customers. I think they still shop the big boxes for everyday items, but when they go looking for unique gifts or service, they come to the small retailers.

[Dermot]

Thanks...Betty

Even though I'm more than aware of the "Niche" market bit.....I love it when people help to reinforce a message....thats what good marketing is all about.

Rgs

Dermot smile.gif

[ 11-07-2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Dermot ]

[HannaFate]

And, of course, we can offer something the big boxes cannot.

Personal service.

None of the big box frameshops can guarantee that the person who takes your order is the one who does it.

No one calls from the big box to say something like, "I just got a great deal on those barnwood frames you like, and I thought you would like the chance to come get some before they get picked over."

Big boxes don't have animals to play with, or free homemade fudge, or young people learning the business from their Dad.

If you don't like the music playing in a big box, tough!

Big boxes don't give away scraps to teachers.

Yes, we can compete. People like to be treated like people.

[Ron Eggers]

I apologize, Betty. Sometimes I'm just out of control.

[Less]

That's it where's my hammer!!!!~!!

No need to get cranky Betty - We all love what you bring to this forum. I can't speak for Less.

[Ron Eggers]

Actually, in my own, warped way, I was being serious. I just didn't express it very well.

My point was/is that Wal-Mart, Home Depot and others are doing a much better job of responding to what we do well than we are in responding to what they do well.

I don't know if Wal-Mart has a butcher in the building, but they have better-looking meat than any of the regular super markets in our city. (There is one actual meat market in Appleton that is in a class of its own.)

Home Depot, by offering all those hands-on classes and hiring some trade professionals is running counter to at least some of the big-box indifference.

[Meghan MacMillan]

The town where I work is an example of what I call Mallification. I used to work in Westport, CT which has follwed the same path a little bit earlier.

All the time I hear the residents of the town complaining that the character of their main street is changing and they don't want the national chains opening here, but apparently the landlords don't share their opinion. The rents are astronomical and therefore out of reach for many independent business owners.

The frou-frou gift store that was nextdoor when we opened here closed their doors a year ago August saying that by closing the store front they could triple their spending on Web exposure and still save two thirds of what they spent on rent. The store is still vacant. Several business people have come in to ask me about the building and the town but so far no takers. One man did say "I'd have to sell a hundred pairs of shoes every day to make that rent and still make money, and I don't sell cheap shoes."

And so my neighbors include The Gap, Sam Goody, Athelete's Foot and Victoria's Secret. Every single one of these chains has 3 Locations within a 7 minute drive from here (2 malls and another "open air Main Street mall." And every day the same people who complain about the chains walk around town teetering under the weight of Gap and Victoria's Secrets bags.

I don't have a solution. That's just my local observation. So far we don't have any framing chains, or even "Big Box" craft stores with framing deprtments.

There is an art supply store with a framing deprtment nearby. I was in there yesterday to buy some ink. Their sign says, "Custom Framing Orders Placed Today Will Be Completed the Week of December 29th" I'm making my sign that says Christmas Orders Accepted through Dec. 23" bigger this year. The 29th? Yesterday I had two customers come to me after going there first and learning they couldn't have their frames before Thanksgiving.

A tangential thought I had is that the level of service is so different because the person straightening the shoe shelves in Wal-Mart will have a job tomorrow with the same pay whether I buy a pair of shoes or don't so helping me find what I want is not a priority for that person. Even though I don't own the store I work in I have specific sales goals, and am rewarded differently for meeting or exceeding them. I really do care if someone walks out without finding something, or with no thought of ever coming back.

[ 11-07-2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Meghan MacMillan ]

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Originally posted by B. Newman:
....Everyone has a favorite coffeehouse that was scrunched by Starbucks, a cozy bookstore juggernauted by Barnes & Noble. Pretty soon, every street in every city will look exactally the same.....Betty,

Let me first start by saying I'm always impressed by your reading skills......my father was similar, in that he could devour two newspapers and a book every day. I wish I shared that same trait that you do.....

Let me now say that as a consummer, I do patronize Starbucks and McDonalds, and to a lesser degree Barns & Noble. I do so because they have been successful in providing a "cookie cutter" format of consistency with a fine product and good service........that's a combination that will always win. It's success rate fits some products better than others.

At the same time, I seldom/never shop at Walmart, or any of the large "Big Boxes" unless I'm looking for a niche item, or bread & butter item that that Chain is know to carry.

The bookstores might be compared to our industry to some degree.....where individuality and service can combat size and marketing image.

The mutltiple discussions currently on this forum about concerns over our competition are covering some broad territory. Some are raising good questions about the direction of our industry and our identity to the consummer.

Is our industry going to change to the point that ALL "Mom & Pop" frameshops/galleries are gone? I don't think so. I don't think that our product can be duplicated and sold through large retail outlets as easily as that. However, as Bob Carter has pointed out numerous times, our customer base has been erroded substantially by BROADER CONSUMMER OPTIONS and many folks either don't see the difference, or don't want to see the difference between custom framing and mass produced framing (no matter the outlet). Hence, our response/strategy has to be one of join 'em or fight 'em.


John

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Originally posted by Meghan MacMillan:
............The 29th? Yesterday I had two customers come to me after going there first and learning they couldn't have their frames before Thanksgiving. The big question here Meghan is why did they go there first?

Perceived value?

Location? Ease of stopping while doing other errands?

Marketing clout? They've heard about them from so many others, they just had to give it a try?

Our best customers will often shop at other places, and although it makes no sense, drives us nuts, it is a fact of life. It's the number of times this happens that should concern us, and how often they capture one of "ours".

How do we combate this? I think we need to be committed to a strong advertising and marketing program......YES, even for a small business.

John

[Meghan MacMillan]

Originally posted by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF:
The big question here Meghan is why did they go there first?
Price.

If a client picked the same LJ moulding and double mat combination at each of our stores we'd be pretty close, but they have a lot more options for the price conscious consumer.

I don't begrudge them all the customers they can serve. There are a lot of walls in this town. However, I'll happily help all the ones they can't.

One of the ladies from yesterday has done quite a bit of framing with me and said she had gone there first because what she was framing was "just posters for the family room" so she didnn't need "the good stuff." She ended up bringing them to me because after working with someone there for a while she still hadn't been shown anything she loved, and she said she didn't feel confident that that person really knew what she was doing.


p.s. The shop I work in was previously occupied by a coffee shop not exactly squeezed out by Starbucks, although there is one across the street. The owners said their biggest problem was keeping it staffed, which could probably be a whole different thread.

[Dermot]

Another example of "It's not just us"

Betty I thought you might enjoy this....

Rgs

Dermot

http://www.eguide.com.sg/newsletter/nov03/content_hld2.asp

Why Asian Countries Need Branding?



Just like companies, Asian nations need to promote themselves as brands. And they must do so quickly to counter the onslaught of foreign competition.

In the world of parity, the only true differentiator is brand image. This is why people pay 1,000 times the price of a Casio watch to have a Rolex, and why Nokia has a commanding 35 percent share of the mobile phone market.

Would you rather take a train journey through Europe on normal trains or the deluxe Orient Express? And what makes the difference? Product quality and performance yes, but the premiums charged represent not only that but other associations in the minds of consumers - status, mystery, romance, prestige. These associations appear in people's minds because they have been deliberately positioned as such.

Why should Asian countries concern themselves with "Brand Image"?

One reason is because the problems they face are the same as companies - parity and the need to differentiate in the face of increasing competition. Just like companies, countries have to attract various customers' group and must market and sell their products, ideas and services to people in other countries. And just as firms have found the best way to do this is not usually via lowest price, but through building perceived value, so countries are doing so as well. There is a drawing recognition that a nation's image is made up of "perceived value", and that value can consist of intangible as well as tangible elements.

Secondly, to survive in a changing world means that countries must change, because relying on past reputation does not always ensure success in the future. What were good perceptions of the past may not be so good now. This is why New Zealand wants to have more than just an image of sheep and rugby by stressing more its medical science expertise and transparency; and why Britain wants to be seen as more innovative, friendly, trendy and "with it".


Strong brands differentiate, and attract people to them
Brands are strategic assets in their own, and can bring both power and financial rewards. They can help countries by replacing the "push" factor with the "pull" factor. Strong brands differentiate, and attract people to them rather than having to chase after them.

Countries need to manage perceptions and control their image in order to manage particular issues of national concern. This has specific relevance to Asian countries, where differentiation is lacking, images very unclear, and where the country-of-origin factor is often detrimental to exports and domestic sales.

Many western countries have established their identity and strengths in certain areas. Germany's reputation for precision engineering, and Italy's association with fashion are examples Asian countries have yet to establish an image. What do Asian countries stand for? Japan has closely linked itself to consumer electronics through its brands, but other countries have no strong positive images or associations.

On the contrary, they often have negative images. For example, China is perceived by many as cheap, poor quality products. What Asian countries have failed to do is manage their brand image well by managing market perceptions, promoting strengths and eliminating perceived weaknesses.

Many branding issues revolve around how much confidence, positive mental associations, and misconceptions are held by target audience, but most Asian countries tend to have a perception gap between what each country wants to be seen (identity) and how each is seen (image). Like companies, they have brand strengths and weaknesses. For example, Singapore has a very pro-business image, but also a reputation for excessive government rules and controls. Hong Kong wants to be seen as a "gateway to China" but many investors do not think this is the case.

Importantly, Asian countries are competing with each other to gain a favourable "share of mind".

Great corporate brands are built on consistency of thought and deed, and countries are not used to doing this. What often happens is that many mixed messages escape, and mixed messages mean a mixed image.

Different government departments often have different agendas - to get more tourists, to get more investment, to get more talented professionals, and so on. They have their own communications plans, their own public relations strategies, and staff that are focused on their own area and do not see "the big picture"

Are there any rules? There is no magic to branding? If you follow the rules and work hard at managing brand image, the rewards will come.

Here are four basic rules that have to be implemented if Asian countries are to improve their branding.
Firstly, governments have to understand that there is more to branding than logos that mean nothing to people they want to influence. It is the action that counts.
Secondly, great brands are built on clear strategy. There is a very clear understanding of what the brand stands for (its values), the desired consumer perceptions of different target audiences, and why they are different and better than competitors. These are brand promises and they must be realistic, credible and believable. Importantly, they have to be delivered.
Thirdly, there is a need for consistency across all "faces" of the brand. In one way this means consistency across all communications from government departments and agencies. In another sense, it means getting buy-in from the private sector. Successful corporate brands develop brand cultures, and countries need to do the same.
The ambassadors of a nation's brand are not just government agencies - they are every firm that ventures into foreign markets, and everyone a tourist meets.

Internal communication and involvement with the community is essential for brand building. Encouraging companies in a country, whether large or small, to carry out effective branding will help build its image. Without combined efforts, national branding is difficult.

Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew was absolutely correct when he said that Singapore must create more brands to survive. So must other Asian countries.
Fourthly, there is the "guardianship" of the brand. As brands are strategic assets, they have to be managed as such. It means putting in time and effort and involving everyone in the nation. Brand management is a strategic agenda item that requires meticulous care. Asian countries must move quickly to establish their brands faced with the impending onslaught of legislated foreign competition, and branding must be put as a top priority in national planning.
There is a strong case for a Ministry of Branding!

The Power and Rewards of National Branding
Asian countries need to clarify what they really stands for and employ brand differentiation strategies. By doing so, they will find that doors will open to the achievement of various national objectives. National branding can:
Increase currency stability
Help restore international credibility and investor confidence
Reverse international ratings downgrades
Increase international political influence
Lead to export growth of branded products and services
Increase inbound tourism and investment
Stimulate stronger international partnerships
Enhance national building (confidence, pride, harmony, ambition, national resolve)
Reverse negative thoughts about environmental and human rights issues)
Help diffuse allegations of corruption and cronyism
Bring greater access to global markets
Lead to an improvement in the ability to win against regional and global business competitors, and defend their own markets

[Jim Miller]

Good food for thought, Betty. He's probably right -- some of us will surely survive the "perfect storm" of BigBox retail marketing.

However, I think our adapting to an ever-evolving retail environment will be as much a factor as consumer attitudes changing in our favor. That is, they won't come running back to us. We'll be meeting them at least halfway, wherever that turns out to be.

The question is, how many of us will be around to see it happen?

So far in central Ohio this year, we've lost more than a half-dozen small frame shops. This morning, a framer in a neighboring suburb called to say they're referring customers to us, because they're closing their store as soon as the inventory is liquidated. We'll miss them. They've been a good neighbor and a respectable competitor.

We've heard "it's just not worth it" a lot lately and, I think unfortunately, we'll continue to hear it from more small shop framers.

Consumers have always been fickle, but they're moving in bigger herds now, and quickly. In our metro market, each new mall opening results in at least one older mall closing almost immediately. There's no remorse among consumers, no concern for those left behind; condition normal.

At the end of the day, we all have to thrive -- or not -- in our own circumstances and on our own merits. Analysis of others' failures or successes won't save us from ourselves.

I'm thankful to have my enjoyable little niche, and I wish everyone else could have one. Vive la niche!

Please excuse me waxing philosophical this afternoon. I'm feeling a little sad about my friends. Maybe I'll stroll down the sidewalk to Starbucks, located in a corner of our new Barnes & Noble, and have a Grande Cafe Mocha. :rolleyes:

[Terry Scidmore CPF]

A jolly representative from Sam's Club, a subsidiary of Wal-Mart, visited me today to invite me to join Sam's Club. He told me that Sam's Club is a friend to small businesses, and shopping there would save me a lot of money.

From The Providence Journal: Calculating The Real Cost Of "Everyday Low Prices", By Froma Harrop, 2003.

"Wal-Mart paid it's salespeople an average of $8.23 an hour in 2001. At that rate, a full time worker earned $13,861 a year. The poverty rate for a family of three was $14,630. Only 38% of Wal-Mart's workers have health coverage. It should surprise no one that nearly half of Wal-Mart's employees quit every year (Before the recession, the annual turnover rate was 70 percent).

Wal-Mart is destroying factory jobs in America. Levi Strauss was one of the last apparel makers to actually produce stuff in the United States. But the Made In America label means zip to Wal-Mart, which scours the globe's sweat-shops for the sweetest prices. Wal-Mart lobbies furiously in Washington for free trade deals that guarantee a flood of goods made by pennies-an-hour labor ($12 billion worth from China alone last year).

To Wal-Mart, unions are the devil and must be destroyed. Three years ago, meat cutters in Jacksonville, Texas, tried to establish the first Wal-Mart union. Eleven days after they joined the United Food and Commercial Workers, Wal-Mart closed all the meat-cutting departments at its stores and started buying pre-cut meat. Its Supercenter stores, which sell groceries, have already sent more than 20 national supermarket chains into bankruptcy.

As a former Wal-Mart customer, your author appreciates the lure of a good price. But there are competing values. When we understand the real cost of those "everyday low prices," they don't seem much of a bargain at all."


A friend in a small town in Idaho e-mailed me about the Wal-Mart that has opened in her area. Her son has a job there. At one of the employee/management meetings, the management announced that Wal-Mart was going to target XYZ Supermarket - a local independent in business in the town for 40 years - and drive them out of business. My friends son raised his hand and said that his aunt worked at XYZ Supermarket. The management told him "well, that's just too bad for your aunt."

A friend to small business?????

[ 11-14-2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Terry Scidmore CPF ]

[tnframer408]

guess I'm the weird one here. Love Amazon, order from them constantly. No shippng, no sales tax, and people like I am write the reviews of the products. Plus a very customer friendly website.

Ialso love WalMart and am addicted to shoppng at Sam's Club. Have personal and business memebership. Go there, save thousands yearly, dohn't care aboutpersonal sesrvice. I know what I want, they have it, I buy it. End of story.

When I buy another car, new stereo stuff, new stuff for my PDA or my MP3 stuff, THEN I want personal service. That's when I visit my specialist, be he in my neighborhood, or on the internet ( and my stereo stuff is bought via internet only because Knoxville does not have a high end stereo store. But he's a dealer in Lexington KY with whome I've spent tons of money. Has credit card on file and knows my voice over the phone.)
Point is: there's room in my buying life for everyone. I'm not prejudiced toward who's doing the selling. I love making lots of money. I love spending money. Yet I also like to get bargains for the money I spend And if your'e deal for commodity items is better than the next guy that's where I'm going.

And how many of YOU keep customer credit cards filed so when they call for that limited edition, you can politely service them and they're confidence in you is such that they feel safe and secure giving you said credit card???

[jframe]

How about companies like Sabre, Delta Airlines, Microsoft that have begun outsourcing help lines, reservations and tech support to India? Thousands of jobs are going to India, putting thousands of Americans out of work.

Companies can hire employees with the same level of education as their American counterparts for a fraction of the cost. Those are well paying jobs here and many of those who held those jobs were our customers.

One drawback is the language barrier. It's not that that they don't know English, they just need to speak it like Americans, and they are working on that.

[B. Newman]

The thing that worries me about WalMart is not their "fleecing of America" as one writer put it. It's not their "killing of downtowns" and it's not even their slavetrade/underpaying/deceptive pricing policies. As long as there are lower paid working people, there will be business for WalMart.

In fact much of "big business" envies WalMart. There was recently an article called "Running the Gauntlet of WalMart" all about what it takes to get a new product into Walmart. How it is possible for new and small businesses to do business with WalMart. Some of the business magazine articles that concern WalMart are negative, but by and large, most are positive.

But what worries me is what happens when WalMart "hiccups". What happens when WalMart "stubs their toe?" We know that this multi BILLION dollar corporation has more cash flow than most small COUNTRIES! And MUCH of America's and even the World's economy rides WalMart's coat-tails. What happens when something happens to WalMart?

Not possible? Oh yeah it is. It is inevitable. It's just a matter of "when."

And that's what worries me about WalMart. In the meantime, I don't have the time to not shop there... :(

Betty

[MatFramer]

What happens when Walmart hiccups? This is what happens when a much smaller company hiccups!!

We have an Electrolux plant in our area that just announced they are closing in 2 years and moving all operations to Mexico. This plant is owned by Electrolux and makes Frigidare Refridgerators. Electrolux is now owned by a Swedish company. Sadly, Electrolux is the major employer is this small community.

3000 people will be out of work!!! How will that affect the total community. It will affect workers in 4 counties. The news media is saying that overall it will affect 8-9,000 jobs. This will definitely affect the economy of many small businesses. Walmart will probably get more business because of low prices. When someone can no longer afford the standard of living they are accustomed to, Walmart steps in. I was going to say wins, but I am not sure that is a win in the long run.

I recently ran into Walmart to pick something up quickly. The young woman at the cash register told me that she use to have a good job in one of the local factories but got laid off. This was good for Walmart because they really did get a good employee. She looked sharp, was extremely polite, was very capable of doing the job and was glad she had some income.

So, not only do they benefit from increased customer base, they have an increased pool of potential employees who are reduced to their wages.

Several years ago, my son worked at Walmart. It was when people still were saying it was a great place to get a job. I would never send even my worst enemy there for a job. I don't believe in unions for the most part, but this is one company that should be unionized.

Do I shop there? Due to circumstances beyond our control, yes I do. My DH lost his job and has only found part time work. I need to save in every corner that I can. Unfortunately, Walmart is just around the corner and Sam's club is right next to them. I have a hard time with the idea of paying someone a membership fee so that I can shop with them, so we are not members there. I had a membership once and rarely used it.

Having been a small shop owner, I prefer to buy whatever I can in a local owned shop.

[B. Newman]

But when WalMart hiccups, the world will feel the reverberations.

I blame NAFTA for the loss of many jobs. What was it Ross Perot called it in 1992, "that great sucking sound..."?

Betty

[ 11-15-2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: B. Newman ]

[Terry Scidmore CPF]

Wall Street lost some momentum yesterday after Wal-Mart turned in a disappointing earnings report. Wal-Mart declined $2.44, or 4.2 percent, to $55.52, after its earnings missed analyst estimates by a penny, and indicated earnings for this quarter could also be below current forecasts. "There's nothing new occurring now to give incentive for an awful lot of buying, so we're seeing a bit of a pause on the retail stocks," Richard Cripps, chief strategist for Legg Mason said, "Wal-Mart put a damper on things, no doubt."

Meg Richards, The Associated Press, Market Watch, Friday, November 14th, 2003.

Betty hit the nail on the head.

[Framerguy]

Hane you ever stopped to consider, what if, theoretically, Walley World would bite the dust completely and go belly up??

Just think of all those independant jobs and businesses that have been put out to pasture in each town because of Walley World's cut throat start up practices.

What would that do to the economy of this country? Would we see small business popping up all over the place again?

I realize that this is far from a possibility but what do you think would be the effect of a monstrous conglomerate like Walley World going down the tubes?

Framerguy

[Tommy P]

I may be wrong, but I beleive I remember some time back how Wal-Mart prided itself in buying "made in the USA" and helping small start-up companies in America. Supposedly most everything you bought there was purchased by intent here........I think that has changed drastically...

..............................

And don't any of you think for one minute that someday down the road....."Custom Framing by Wal-Mart" can't happen!!!!!

[Less]

I may be wrong, but I beleive I remember some time back how Wal-Mart prided itself in buying "made in the USA" and helping small start-up companies in America. Supposedly most everything you bought there was purchased by intent here........I think that has changed drastically...
That was just to soften local resistance.

I'm with Terry, I won't shop there - it's not worth the price.

[Bob Carter]

I always get tickled when we start bashing anyone successful. It can be Wal-Mart, Craig Ponzi, Thomas Kinkade, Martha Stewart-it's always the same.

We skew the numbers to make it look as horrible a possible. Truth seems to be the first casualty.

We live in free market, capitalist system. If someone will work for "Wal-Mart slave wages", it is because that is what they are worth. If they were worth more, they should get more. If they don't the have no one to blame but themselves. It's true in our industry, also.

Curt Schilling gets paid $10 million a year to throw a baseball. Is he worth it? Absolutely. Otherwise, he wouldn't get it. No one holds a gun to anyone's head in employment.

As a personal anecdote, the sister-in-law of one of my employees is a cashier at Costco. She passes items over a scanner and the client bags or boxes their own purchases. This cashier makes 40% more than a public school teacher.

She does work full-time, has a great benefit package and thinks (get this) she is over-worked and underpaid.

It's all about perspective

[Mitch]

Bob

I am offended!

"We live in free market..."

"...If they were worth more, they should get more..."

"This cashier makes 40% more than a public school teacher."

"It's all about perspective."


look at what you are saying

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by B. Newman:
...What happens when WalMart "stubs their toe?" What happens when something happens to WalMart?...Betty Confession: I shop at Sam's Club. I pay for my employees' annual memberships, too. We find value there.

Like Bob Carter, I have great confidence in our free market; I believe it will take care of itself, just as it always has before. That is, so long as we remain free to shop where we find value that suits us. And considering the growth of government intervention in business, maybe that won't always be a natural assumption.

In business, the fairness of open competition is absolute. It sometimes isn't fortunate or pretty, but all players live or die by their choices. There never was, and never will be a "level playing field". A few will take the high ground; most won't.

Betty, you're surely right about WalMart going down. It probably won't be soon, but one day consumers will turn to the next GreatThing in consumer marketing, and WalMart will go away.

Just a few short years ago, K-Mart seemed invincible. American automobile makers were smug in their dismissal of "Japanese junk". American steel companies, railroads, and airlines seemed too big, too successful, and too much a part of our lives to ever fail. But they did. They still do. And when they do, we just move on.

Betty, one day, when you're a feeble old matron in a nursing home, perhaps one of those sweet, young nurses will look into your tired old eyes and ask, "Is it true MicroSoft was once a big company?"

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by Mitch:
Bob I am offended!... look at what you are saying Mitch:

Let's not be too hard on Bob. I don't think it was his idea.

[Less]

Of course you are right Bob, but we can make a concerted effort to support the small independent businesses that provide superior service and fair prices.

If Wal-Mart and others were private companies they MAY treat their employees as valued individuals with the same respect as their investors. They also MAY not be interested in decimating their competition.

I think the problem becomes when the bottom line becomes the ONLY important factor in doing business. When they can't find any more ways to increase their salaries and grow shareholder value by cutting away at their own foundation, that is when it will come crumbling down. But who's really going to care. The people at the top will retire fat.

Meanwhile we do have a right to choose who to support.

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by Jim Miller:
Betty, one day, when you're a feeble old matron in a nursing home, perhaps one of those sweet, young nurses will look into your tired old eyes and ask, "Is it true MicroSoft was once a big company?" And I'll lay aside my latest business magazine and say, "Honey, ya see this sweet little man dozing in the rocker next to me? Why, he worked in computers when it was all punch cards and tape drives. When MicroSoft was just an upstart... Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations, doncha know ;) "

Seriously, when Montgomery Ward was the new kid on the block, my (then) boss told me, "You can't sell something for less than it costs you and stay in business very long; even if it is to bring in customers in hopes that they'll buy enough for you to cover the margin." And he was right.

However, WalMart doesn't do that. They control their vendors and basically tell them what they'll pay for a product. WalMart has required vendors to package items and in some cases even r&d products specifically for them.

Now, having said that, let me say that I shop at WalMart and I have a business Sam's card. Yes they are successful, and (as much as we hate to think it) we can even learn from them. And as I said somewhere else, I don't have time to not shop at WalMart. There are no speciality stores for toothpaste and toiletpaper.

What worries me about WalMart, or any company that controls that much of the ecomony is, if/when they fall, what and who will they take with them? Do you realize how much of Rubbermaid's business is through WalMart? And many other companies are in the same boat.

In that article I mentioned on "Running the Gauntlet of WalMart" one business man said, "The worst thing that can happen to you in this business is NOT doing business with WalMart. The second worst thing IS doing business with WalMart."

There's not a whole lot we can do about it. Just make sure there are enough "mason jars filled with cash" buried in the back yard to take care of that nursing home adventure, I guess! :D

Betty

[ 11-20-2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: B. Newman ]

[Dermot]

I guess even Wal-Mart can acknowledge when they are not doing things right……for those of you that have no knowledge of diversity programs…..they do work…...I would consider this a major move on the part of Wal-Mart.

Rgs

Dermot

http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/business/story/1058168p-7425642c.html
Wal-Mart to start diversity office
The Associated Press
Last Updated 2:24 p.m. PST Tuesday, November 18, 2003

BENTONVILLE, Ark. (AP) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. announced Tuesday it would create a diversity office, and named a company lawyer to lead the effort.
Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, is the target of a variety of employment-related court actions. Plaintiffs allege the company exerted a bias against women and didn't pay overtime that employees worked. Wal-Mart also has acknowledged that it is the target of a federal grand jury probe into illegal workers.
Charlyn Jarrells Porter will head up the diversity office, the company said. Porter has been with Wal-Mart for 11 years, handling labor and employment cases and, most recently, working in the human resources division.
"Diversity doesn't just happen," Wal-Mart president and CEO Lee Scott said. "Just saying we are committed to diversity is not enough - we must put in place the right systems, processes and leadership to make it happen."
Wal-Mart also announced that Esther Silver-Parker will join the company as vice president of diversity relations, effective Dec. 1. She is currently AT&T's vice president of corporate affairs and corporate citizenship.
Wal-Mart, the largest private employer in the United States, has 1.1 million domestic employees and about 3,500 stores.
Shares in Wal-Mart rose 4 cents to $55.04 in morning trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

[framanista]

I don't believe in leaving my values at the door when I go shoping. Here's a couple of good recources I've found: www.equalexchange.org (http://www.equalexchange.org) , www.tenthousandvillages.org (http://www.tenthousandvillages.org)

[Warren Tucker]

This is something I learned as a freshman in college (Econ 101): free trade helps everyone (lower prices because each trader does what he has an economic advantage in doing (poor countries have low wages to offer); protection (tarrifs) benefits a small group at the expense of everyone else. If we halted cheap textiles from China to help the handfull of American textile workers, every household in America would pay a higher price for clothes. The illegal steel tarrifs are a great example: saving the 12,000 odd steel jobs, we have accross the board 30% price increases in steel used in the US. Not only do we have to pay higher prices for products using steel, US manufacturers are less competitive because they have to bay higher prices for steel than their foreign competitors. The Wall Street Journal figures we probably lost 100,000 manufacturing jobs because of the ill advised tarrifs.

I don't see how you can justify making everyone in, say, a small town pay more for essentials so that a small business can provide them and stay in business. Everyone in the town is better off when a Walmart opens at the expense of a few small, inefficient businesses. Thousands of people get lower prices (and a higher standard of living) while a very small number of small business people suffer.

I went into the framing business because, unlike a camera shop, I figured that a mass merchant couldn't compete with me and I feel I made the right choice. They can't compete with me in price, quality or service and that's where I like to sit. Warren

[Bob Carter]

Hey Mitch-No need to be offended and as Jim said, certainly wasn't my intent.

To clarify slightly, I don't know a single person that makes minimum wage. Do you? Those they may have (and I did, once)have either earned their way up the ladder (not hard to do from that level)or haven't demonstrated their worth. Doesn't say much for their ability, does it?

I learned a valuable lesson many years ago in B-School in an Ethics Class (and you thought they didn't teach that stuff, right?). The question was "Who was more exploited- The Migrant farm worker or the Major League Baseball player". Remember, this was late '70's.

I'll give you the answer tomorrow and it was a great lesson in perspective that I've never forgotten.

For the record, I have never been overpaid in any job, ever. And my employeers, including myself, felt they were paying me exactly what I was worth.
This includes a short stint of being paid under $100 a month in the military.

[Rebecca]

I'm not sure a purely capitalist society is something any of us would like to live in. Social Darwinism is pretty brutal, except for the lucky few. John Steinbeck wrote a nice little book about it a few years ago ;) .

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Steinbeck/grapes.html

Rebecca

[ 11-20-2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Rebecca ]