My undercover sting with the retail framing industry

[ScottStratten]

Recently I spoke at a Retail Framing Industry Conference about Un-Marketing your store... below is the article that shows the undercover operation I performed to get the inside scoop on how these retailers (and sadly most retailers in any industry) behave...

You've Been Framed.......

I’ve always wanted to be a private eye. Growing up watching the three M’s will do that to you (Matlock, Macguyver, Magnum P.I.). My mission was simple: Visit multiple retail framing stores posing as a customer to do research for an upcoming seminar at the AFEX show. Donning an old baseball cap, T-shirt and jeans, I set off on my search for the best and worst experiences I could find. Unfortunately, none of the fourteen stores I visited could be classified as “best” since they all performed miserably. My initial thought would be some stores would get it right, treat me as a valued potential customer and understand how relationships equal good business, and there would be others that didn’t have the time of day for me.

Each store had the same scenario presented to them, a young man in his street clothes comes in to inquire about getting his College diploma framed, which he did not bring along. So off I went… and that’s where everything went downhill. I can’t really choose which part was worse, the store owner/operator peering out of the back room announcing “CAN I HELP YOU?” in a tone that would define “stern” or the rolling of the eyes when I mentioned I didn’t bring the item to be framed with me.

At every stop I was told that I should have brought in the piece to be given a proper estimate, and to come back with it if I wanted a quote. Is this reasonable? Of course, I understand the concept of not being able to quote on something you can’t see, but there is no need to make a customer feel stupid about it. I was in your store, you’ve got me through the door, what can you do to make sure when I leave, I will still come back later?

I certainly can tell you what NOT to do. :

1. Don’t let me off the hook when I say I’m “just looking”.

This is the biggest lie in the retail world. The majority of the time, no one is just looking. They didn’t randomly end up in your store and became curious as to what was inside. Your store is called a framing store, not exactly something that draws a “I wonder what they do, let’s go inside and take a look!”. Especially if you’re situated in a strip mall, people don’t just drop in. even if it’s because they really enjoy looking at the art inside, they’re expressing interest in what you and the artists do, so capitalize on it! If the person enjoys looking at art, offer to invite them to an exclusive preview of new pieces down the road, or discounts when new pieces arrive. Make them feel special.

2. Don’t hand me a frequent shopper card.

I have more frequent shopper cards in my wallet that it’s starting to resemble a new appendage. Instead of making people add your punch card to the masses they already have, offer to keep it in the store and when they come back again, they can let you know they have a card, and they get their discount! Also, make it easy for them to get the incentives if they buy enough. One of the department stores I used to frequent made it harder to redeem my already earned points than it would be to frame a poster only using saran wrap and twigs. The last thing I need to do is have to jump through hoops just to give YOU more business.

3. Don’t ask “Can I help you??”

Being of the male gender, the term “can I help you?” sets off the same alarm bells when I’m told to ask for directions. Something deep down inside tells me “You, man, need no help…grunt…” No one ever needs help, but everyone is interested in being asked how they are.

4. Don’t wait to acknowledge me.

I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve always had the dream of being the invisible man, but not when I’m in your store. At least 6 of the stores I went in, the owner was speaking to someone else and never acknowledged my presence until they were done with that customer, plus whatever else they were doing. All it takes is “Hi! I’ll be with you in just one minute” said in a pleasant manner. Therefore, I don’t feel like I’m rudely interrupting you when I walk in your store.
5. Don’t send me to look at your online brochure…er….website.

The majority of framing store sites I looked at after leaving the store (that’s if they even had one!) were practically the same as their store brochure, except in digital format. The function of your website should not just be to inform, but to collect information of your visitors. Set-up a newsletter that says “Sign-up for our monthly newsletter to be the first to see new prints, and receive a 10% discount on all future orders” Therefore, you “Pull & Stay” with all of your visitors (more on that below).

First, treat each customer with the respect and treatment you would as if they were your dream customer with money to burn. Many store owners I spoke with afterwards want more corporate accounts, some of which need to get in touch with the Human Resources Manager to get the sale (The HR Manager is the one who is in charge of incentive plans i.e. framed prints etc..) Little did these storeowners know, but the guy with the baseball is good friends with at least 12 Human Resource Managers in the area, and was a former one himself. As I write this I received an email asking for some opinions on incentive plans from a colleague in HR, do you think I’ll be sending them to one of those stores anytime soon? You must view every person that walks through your door as one person removed from your ideal client, and treat it as such. I am not an interruption to your day, I am not an inconvenience, I am a potential customer, and a word-of-mouth machine that can spread the word, good or bad. You choose.

Too many storeowners let people come and go, when they should be trying to “Pull & Stay” each customer. Let me explain:

A typical framing storeowner practices the “Push & Pray” technique. People come into their store, look around and leave. They have made no attempt to find out what they were interested in and offered no opportunity to give their contact information. The stack of business cards and brochures on the counter, if someone cared to take one, was the standard fare. They were defining the term "Push & Pray", which means they were "Pushing" out their marketing (biz cards, brochures) and praying someone would buy from them some other time.

What they should have done is the "Pull & Stay" technique. A simple request to gather the potential customers’ information by either a contest (giving away a postcard sized print, etc..) or a discount. They could have gathered every interested person’s info and kept in touch with them consistently, so when the time does come to purchase a painting or get something framed, they would be at the forefront of the buyer’s mind. One of the easiest methods I've used is to create the "Top 10" list article. Pick the need you fill, the problem you solve and write an article that would be similar to advice you would give a customer. It’s always easier to write this when you choose a “focus” market. Notice I didn’t say a “target market”. When people think of a target market, they make it far too vague or wide to work (i.e. my target is people who want framing done!) You need to pick a focus that you can get your mind around and meet their needs. Is it new corporate accounts? Local artists? Once you choose who they are, write your Top 10 list. It could be the “Top 10 ways to preserve your art”. You write the article, print it out and offer it to every single person that walks in your door and let them know if they want more, to give you their contact info and you’ll send them new articles as they come out. Now you can be in front of our potential customers with great information.

When you’re faced with competition from a bigger store you tend to look at what you can’t do better then them (out advertise, better discounts) as opposed to your strengths of a passion for your craft and the ability to give personalized customer service. With the above method of sending out quality articles every so often to interested potential customers, not larger store can out-advertise that!

So, what could these fourteen storeowners have done to get my business? Instead of scolding me about not bringing in the diploma, they could have showed me some typical sizes and framing set-ups for my diploma, but with the stipulation that if I could bring it in, it would make for a much better estimate. They could have asked what school I went to (getting to know me and build the relationship), or handed me a list of ways that I could best preserve my keepsake. Do anything to show that you’re interested in my potential business with you, instead of an interruption in your busy day. If you’re too busy to deal with customers, you should not be in retail.

My diploma is still unframed and in my closet, so I’m off to try some more stores. Now where did I put my cap?

Outside of his undercover missions, Scott Stratten is the President of Un-Marketing, a company that helps businesses bring customers to them. He can be reached at (905) 844-2818 or Scott@Un-Marketing.com . He also publishes a free bi-weekly newsletter with tips on how to market your business without wasting money. To subscribe, visit www.Un-Marketing.com (http://www.Un-Marketing.com) or send an email to subscribe@Un-Marketing.com

[Bob Carter]

Okay, Show of hands. How many people didn't know this was going to be an advertising pitch?

While the points he brings up are valid and we all need to work on them, don't you think this same e-mail was sent to just about every other trade this guy could find? As in "I walked into 14 (fill in the blank) stores asking how much does it cost to (fill in the blank)" and the rest is boiler-plate.

I appreciate his wanting to help, but be sincere. This is no better than a telemarketer phone call at dinner time.

[katman]

Bob, you were too fast for me! I looked at this and wondered how many others were sent the sales pitch. Guy must be a real wiz to have figured out how to make it through retail 101. Un-remarketable.

[ScottStratten]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your comments...

If you would like to pick up the latest copy of Bevelled Edge Magazine (the Canadian Framing industry magazine) you'll see this article in it.

If you'd like to look at the AFEX 2003 conference website, you'll see I was the Speaker for the event.

If you'd like to email me and ask about my integrity, no problem, but please don't question my ethics on a public board, it's insulting. If my byline at the end of the article offends you, I apologize, it's the article in its entirety.

"don't you think this same e-mail was sent to just about every other trade this guy could find? "

This guy? I've come here before and interacted briefly... this guy went out to framing retailers only because I was hired by Nielson and Bainbridge to do so since they sponsored my seminar.... This guy just got back from Vancouver to do the same Un-Marketing session to retail framing stores out West.

"and the rest is boiler-plate."

Now you're insulting my writing style? I wrote that article from scratch about my experiences at your framing stores... each word, nothing cut and paste from anywhere.

"I appreciate his wanting to help, but be sincere. This is no better than a telemarketer phone call at dinner time."

Sincere? I'm appalled.... From the last time I posted on here I've helped out numerous people through email about their framing business issues, no charge, no sell. I also crusade against telemarketing and am known for my anti-cold call stance...

I assumed wrong that this article was useful for the board.... I see I'm not welcome here.

Scott

[ScottStratten]

"I looked at this and wondered how many others were sent the sales pitch. Guy must be a real wiz to have figured out how to make it through retail 101. Un-remarketable."

Am I the one with the problem? If this stuff is so easy, we weren't any of the stores doing them? Sales pitch?? What am I selling? My free newsletter? Wow.... And thanks for the "Un-remarketable" comment, nice touch.

Scott

[MAX]

Scott, you've got to learn to RELAX, man. When stressful situations take over your life, you need help right there and then. You need to learn to 'Relax on Demand', d u d e . When you are having these 'stress moments', you need to find someone to talk you right through them to help you deal with the cause of the stress, and relax.

[ 10-23-2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: MAX ]

[ScottStratten]

Originally posted by MAX:
Scott, you've got to learn to RELAX, man. When stressful situations take over your life, you need help right there and then. You need to learn to 'Relax on Demand', d u d e . When you are having these 'stress moments', you need to find someone to talk you right through them to help you deal with the cause of the stress, and relax. Now THAT was funny, thanks for the laugh Max.... touche. I should go listen to my own CD ;)

Scott

[ 10-23-2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: ScottStratten ]

[El Framo]

I found the information useful. I'm going to print it out and force (at gunopint if neccessary) them all to read it. I am appreciative of "this guy's" effort.

[Cliff Wilson]

I thought the post was interesting and useful.

While I was reading it I did think, "this belongs in the "Commercial Posts" forum." But, I don't mind reading it here. tongue.gif

Scott, I'm glad you posted and I know you've posted before. But, you have to admit this was an attempt to promote yourself! ;)

Keep it up.
Cliff

[Jana]

Hi Scott, Belated welcome to the Grumble. I second what Cliff said and was just about to post basically the same thing.

I appreciate your input and am going to print it and take it to work to discuss. Thanks for sharing!

[Dermot]

Well Scott

I guess you are right on the money and if others want to take a closed mind approach to what you have to offer that’s their problem……..most business that I know of need a pair of eyes looking in from the outside from time to time and it is only the very narrow minded business owner who doesn’t welcome it……..as for you doing a little sales pitch…..good on you……..I do it every chance I get…….though I have to say I’m not as honest as you are….you just come out and say you are making a sales pitch……I love it……and I have learned BIG sales lesson today……..there are a few people who are into self promotion, who post on this site……but are not as up front as you.

As some of you may know I’m a big fan of Michael Dell possible the most successful business person the world has knows ….what’s ringing in my in my ears at the moment is the derision that was shown for his “Direct Sales Model” when he first started to use it around the world….and not just in the US…..this derision was worldwide……..”it wont work or it cannot work”…..the masters of the business world and his industry told him………well we all know what happened……from place # 25 as a “Branded” computer manufacture in 1984 to # 1 or 2 “Worldwide” in 2003 depending on who you are talking to.

Scott keep up the good work……there are eyes and ears that are open to suggestions about subjects we may have become complacent about.


Rgs

Dermot

PS
Welcome to the Grumble

[Bob Shirk MCPF]

I wish that you had come into our shop. We would have shown you a couple of samples of framed diplomas. We would have asked what school your diploma was from. We would have given you a rough idea of the price to have the diploma framed. And yes we would have urged you to return with your diploma so that we could design framing for it at no cost to you other than a little bit of your time.

Do I always greet everyone when they come in? NO, I realize that I should but I am always weighing the question should I be giving the customer that I am working with my undivided attention or should I break away for a moment to greet someone who has come in to "look around".

I'm signing up for the newsletter. We can all use new ideas and reminders of old ideas that will help us be more profitable.

[Framerguy]

I never greet a person in my shop with, "Can I help you?"! That seems to me to be a redundant question. If the person DIDN'T need some kind of help, he/she wouldn't have wandered in to begin with.

If they are looking for a gift, want to know how much it would cost to frame something, or just curious about something they saw in the window display, they need some degree of help when they enter.

So, my standard greeting is, "Hi, how may I help you, today?" I just assume that they DO need some help and go from that point. The reaction that you got by not having your diploma with you when you inquired about framing is a common one. And the main reason is, diplomas come in all sizes, not just 8 1/2"x11". I have framed smaller and I have framed alot bigger. (Have you seen the size of the graduation certificate from military Officers School??) HUGE!!

It is difficult to determine a price on framing when you don't have the beginning dimensions as a starting point. And most framers are busy enough not to want to do that estimate twice for a customer.

I can't offer a reason for the apparent rudeness or lack of greeting you received in many of these shops. But I guarantee you this, as Bob Shirk said, you won't be ignored in MY shop should you ever stop by for a visit or an estimate!

(Must be that Pennsylvania blood that brings this out in some of us, eh Bob??)

Framerguy

[ScottStratten]

Originally posted by Bob Shirk CPF:
I wish that you had come into our shop. We would have shown you a couple of samples of framed diplomas. We would have asked what school your diploma was from. We would have given you a rough idea of the price to have the diploma framed. And yes we would have urged you to return with your diploma so that we could design framing for it at no cost to you other than a little bit of your time.You see Bob, that's what I was expecting from at least a few of the stores... which is why I was amazed...

I'll have to swing by your store the next time I'm in PA, with a baseball cap on ;)

Scott

[Bob Carter]

Scott-I said it was helpful and valid. I just took a slight exception that it was an info-mercial on an exchange forum.

Quite frankly, I would have ignored posting except for the last paragraph of self-promotion.

But, come on. This stuff is Boiler-plate. Fill in the blanks and it applies to any trade. Customize the pitch and it can be "I was looking for bike or I was looking for drill or I was looking for a saddle". Your points on service are valid, no argument.

You'll get my respect next time if you put your intent in the first paragraph. Start out by selling your service upfront and see where it goes.

I'm sorry, it just reminded me of those bothersome phone calls that always start out "I'm not selling anything...."

Be honest, I'll respect it. I may not buy it, but I'll respect it.

By the way, most of us could always stand a reminder of what we all know about service but have let slide. Thanks, at least for that.

[Rogatory]

I may have only been posting here for a short time but I've been lurking for a long time. I didn't read Scott’s post in a bad way. I did check out his website and even signed up to his newsletter. If I don’t dig it.... DELETE.

I am always looking for an "edge", if this gives me one thing I can use then I thank (or think) great Scott!

Scott, I wish you would have come into my shop, I think I would have been on the top of your list! The things you address are the things I strive to do. With the exception of discounts.

Being a one-man band it would be silly to have a secret shopper come into my store, but I would not be mad if someone such as yourself did this and latter came back and talked to me about your experience in my store. (Without a sales pitch!)

-David-

[Ron Eggers]

I found some useful ideas in Scott's post and I wasn't offended by finding it here.

'Course, I am widely-loved for my mellow, easy-going nature. ;)

[Ron Eggers]

By the way, I try to pretend that every stranger who comes into my shop is a secret shopper - perhaps from Decor magazine or PPFA national.

I imagine I fail as often as not.

[Bob Carter]

I just got an email from Scott asking me to defend my "boiler-plate" characterization. I think he thinks I am attacking him personally.

Not so.

But, here's the boiler-plate version.

I go to many sale seminars and Customer Service presentations. I think you never know enough and always need some re-affirming of those principles that are pretty much time-tested. Scott and I have no argument on any of that.

But, these sales seminars always have someone that uses the exact same arguments be it Dog Food (really, I sat in on a sales meeting from the Nat'l Sales Mgr of Purina) or Cameras. The only thing missing was that favorite line about the guy that comes into the (Car dealership, the Frame store, the Jewelery store)and the first salesman blows him off because he is wearing old overalls with the insincere "Can I help you". The old down and outer says"I'm just looking". The slick salesman goes back talking to his buddies and they snicker at the man with his tattered clothes until a new salesman walks in and sees this old man and approaches him with a smile and a proven sales-winner opening line like "You're looking at the all new, improved BelchFire 200 model of (Car, frame, watch, ring) and it be bring years of happiness and all your neighbors will think that you are the smartest guy on your black for making such a fine decision".

The old man pulls out a roll of hundred dollar bills thick enough to choke a horse and peels off (fill in the blank amount)and buys this new BelchFire model of (car, frame, watch)

Come on, you know you've heard it before. Or maybe, I heard it too many times. I'm sorry, Scott. If you want to sell your marketing services to any of us, just be upfront and tell us.

I wasn't offended by your offer, I'm not offended by your approach. Like I said, it's been done before many times.

[Dermot]

(Quote by Bob Carter
Come on, you know you've heard it before. Or maybe, I heard it too many times)

Bob perhaps complacency has set in……….and in any case……I like to make up my own mind about subjects on the Grumble………………I’m myself……..not you or anyone else for that matter…….I can speak for myself.

Not all of us are as privileged as you that we can or have being able to attend conventions as often as we would like to……we relay on the likes of Scott and yourself to share their knowledge with us a fact I‘m very grateful for……remember Bob I’m in Ireland……and have never being able to access the business education that I would have desired if I had lived in the US or main land Europe.

Just remember there are a few people who post on the Grumble that use the “Below Line Marketing” method to promote themselves and non of us have complained………at least Scott was up front about it….. and his by line is pretty standard practice from everything I have received from marketeers…….I really think you are nit picking on this one……..perhaps a little humility on this occasion would not go astray.

Rgs

Dermot

[ 10-23-2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Dermot ]

[dns ynko]

I agree with several points on this one. It is a typical traing tool for salespeople. Now that being said I think to hear it evey once in a bit helps to keep you in touch. It could be made up very easily, there is nothing in this that I find to be convincingly real. I am not saying it is fake, but it is just too generic. It is one of those cookie cutter things.

I wish he would have gone in with the diploma. See what you get when you have the piece, is it the same? Lets face there are some people that are not buying what your are selling. I go into places all the time with no idea what exactly it is. Sometimes I look around and waste time while waiting for someone. I want to look around then you can ask me. What this guy is describing is the used car salesman type of thing, but not quite as strong with the come on.

It is good to hear, so it is on your mind. Just add something of value to this idea of selling, not the same thing for frame shops.
d

[katman]

Okay, maybe I was a little hard on Scott.

It's just that I'm fed up with the telemarketers calling every morning about the great phone deals, or the hot investment deals clogging the fax machine. And preaching academics just don't do it for me if they have never actually demonstrated tremendous applied success.

Maybe it's because of my old training in the news business, but I think someone ought to put at the top of an announcement the point of the message. Scott wants you to be part of his following.

Scott is a promoter of himself. Nothing wrong with that. Do a search on him and you'll see he is "on the faculty" of Sheridan College and, according to insiderreports.com, graduated from that school after a rebellious period that entailed growing his hair long and playing in high school rock bands. I don't know how old the Insider Reports profile is, but it indicates Scott is about 26. Scott has lots of testimonials, many of which are from students.

Max, I think I found one of Scott's sites on stress management so he must know how to RELAX.

It looks to me that Scott can be very successful on the seminar circuit. I did not uncover any information that indicates he ran a successful retail business.

I do know a lot of people who made lots of money by promoting the image they created while using a pretty basic script such as the canned retail principles message Scott used to initiate this discussion.

I know I've got a lot to learn about retailing. Scott probably has some great ideas on how to make money because a little web search indicates he has plenty of energy.

I just didn't see anything that indicates he has experience doing anything but seminars, electronic newsletters and other types of talking.

Oh, sorry. He claims to have done some mystery shopping and reported on the results.

Like I said at the top, I'm probably being too hard on him. But, I'll take my instruction from someone who has made or lost big bucks doing the business they are talking about.

That's my soapbox piece for today.

[John Richards]

I don't mind this one either. Any new source of information should always be welcome. I do read The Beveled Edge and it is a fine publication. If they thought the article worthy of publication than it's appearence in this forum is more than fitting.

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by ScottStratten:
"...don't you think this same e-mail was sent to just about every other trade this guy could find?"..."and the rest is boiler-plate."

Now you're insulting my writing style? I wrote that article from scratch about my experiences at your framing stores... each word, nothing cut and paste from anywhere.Scott Scott:

Considering your biography & invitation to contact you, included at the end of your opening post, I guess you consider us to be potential customers for your marketing consulting business.

As a marketing expert, you surely know the psychology of a buyer/seller relationship. As a simple framer, perhaps I shouldn't presume to advise you, but I hope you won't mind if I do anyway. I'd like to suggest a different approach when addressing independent business owners, potential customers, like us:

1. Grab the customer's attention quickly & concisely; keep your message short and to the point. Your opening post was a little long & detailed.

2. Seek common ground on which to build a business relationship. You may tell us how to do it right, but we don't need to hear that we're doing it all wrong. Keep communications positive.

3. When a potential customer reacts unfavorably to your presentation, work to close the gap, not widen it.

4. When a potential customer rejects your recommendations initially, keep talking positively in subsequent contacts.

I can see where Bob Carter's response came from. Maybe he had the right idea about sending a similar "boiler plate" message to all kinds of retailers. You took unkind exception to his allegation, but maybe you should try it. It could work. Bob's a marketing guy himself, and with a track record that makes most of us envious.

When your sincerity is questioned, it's tempting to be appalled, but that won't help to prove your sincerity.

Dermot has shown a constructive view that all of us may learn from. Thanks, Dermot.

This reminds me of a food fight. Fun, but now there's a mess to clean up.

[ScottStratten]

"Maybe it's because of my old training in the news business, but I think someone ought to put at the top of an announcement the point of the message. Scott wants you to be part of his following."

What? What would have me put? Please show me.

"a search on him and you'll see he is "on the faculty" of Sheridan College"

Yes I am, I teach in their business program, actually have a stack of mid-terms in front of me that I should be marking.

"I don't know how old the Insider Reports profile is, but it indicates Scott is about 26."

28 actually, but I'm not sure your point... would this have been a better article coming from a 40 year old potential customer?

"Scott has lots of testimonials, many of which are from students."

I just checked again, none of the testimonials are from students, see for yourself http://www.un-marketing.com/unmarketingtest.html

"It looks to me that Scott can be very successful on the seminar circuit. I did not uncover any information that indicates he ran a successful retail business."

Already am successful at seminars, but what does not running a successful retail business have to do with me writing an article of how I should be treated as a customer?

"I just didn't see anything that indicates he has experience doing anything but seminars, electronic newsletters and other types of talking."

I didn't know I had to post a resume...

"Oh, sorry. He claims to have done some mystery shopping and reported on the results."

That's exactly what I did... telling store owners why I, and other people are not spending money at their stores.

"Like I said at the top, I'm probably being too hard on him. But, I'll take my instruction from someone who has made or lost big bucks doing the business they are talking about."

I wasn't instructing anything, it was an article I wrote about my experiences in your industry's stores.....

Incredible....

Scott

[B. Newman]

We all think we know what to do; we just don't do it.

The first time Scott posted on the G (a few weeks ago) I went to his site and signed up for the newsletter. (You know me, the more info the better.) It's good.

Bob, the thing is, we (you and I and some others) have heard this all before because we study this industry and any other industry that has nuggets for us to glean. We read the trades PLUS the business magazines. We see how marketing dog food and framing has some similarities. As I said on the book thread (in which there seems to be absoultely no interest) marketing is marketing.

For instance, I talked to a cell phone guy at the mall today about service for my father-in-law. I was not ready to buy, only asking questions. The guy was very nice to me and when he gave me his card, he wrote his cell phone number on the back. Hmmm, I just read in INC magazine that in order to gain a "relationship" with a new customer or prospect, when you give them your card, write "something" personal on it. Doesn't really matter what, just "something" to make them think that you are doing this just for them.

Did he read that, too? I don't know, but you know what, it worked, even though I knew the tactic. Maybe it wasn't a "tactic". Maybe he really did care. Doesn't matter, I'll go back to him.

If Scott had just left off the last paragraph, I think this post would have garnered rave reviews. We just don't like to be sold, if someone else is doing the selling.

Betty

[ 10-23-2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: B. Newman ]

[Marc Lizer]

Could you do me a favor a give me a list of the actual frame shops (name and location)?

If you don't want to post here, that's fine. marclizer at earthlink.net is fine to send it there.

[Marc Lizer]

It seems a bit of controversy has erupted.

Well, as the moderator let's see what I can doo to level the situation.

Both sides are correct. This is a good article. And yes, this was an article meant as marketing and infomercial.

A quick surf of the net will show that most of what Scott posts is helpful, but yet, also a marketing at the same time.

That's not always a bad thing. Many inside our industry only post for the same reasons on such boards.

And others post only to make sure their branded name stays in the forefront.

So my thoughts are: Nice article. But yes, the titles and tasks could be changed to grocery stores, baseball card shops, adult book stores, whatever.

On my surfing I did hot some interesting stuff. Notably http://www.robfrankel.com/frankelbiz/freeclinic/101402.html

http://www.marketing-strategy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=577

Also visit to: http://www.ablake.net/forum/ , scroll down to the thread titled "My undercover sting into the world of retail... " If you can't find it: try http://ablake.net/forum/index.cgi?read=146231

and

http://www.kickinthehead.com/Artists/F/First_Of_All/

It would appear that Scott is an ambitious fellow who has a clear goal, and is working out a path to get there.

I think such an approach can be a usefull addition on the grumble.

However, it is my guess that Scott will leave.

No. It's not because of anything that anyone said. While surfing, I found that on other fourms where he posts, it is pretty much a post, a response or two, and then no more. But that was only on the the fourms I found. I would not mind being proven wrong.

That's the trouble with marketing oneself as oneself.

You feel you need to shoot wide, and maybe catch a few.

Time and experience will teach the better markets to penetrate for exposure and return.

And also how best to enter the most viable markets effectivly.

Just a thought, or two.

I'll duck the arrows as they fly back at me now.

[ 10-24-2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]

[Sammy]

Don't judge this grumble page based on a few smaller minds that may decide to try and make your position smaller, and their own, bigger, by belittling it. These people who have criticized your research are probably the same ones that do not provide, nor appreciate, good customer service. I am a owner of two customer service businesses and believe in the insight into a secret shopper. Thank you for your portrayal of your experience. I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

[Framerguy]

Sammy,

Well, that was a fine example of an openminded mature reply.

As a "veteran" Grumbler yourself, I would expect that you know these people who you choose to condemn. I am not defending anybody's response to Scott's thread, but I feel that you are just as rude and "little minded" as any of them if your post is serious.

Everyone is allowed to express an opinion here and whether you agree or not is your perogative. But to put the "bad mouth" on others puts you in the same playground, IMHO.

Framerguy

[Less]

You guys should feel blessed, I can't even make a Craig Ponzio joke without getting the ray gun. :D tongue.gif

But, I guess you are hoping that someday he my jump in.

Maybe it was the Red Bull and Unseal? :confused:

Marc's post was a bit enlightening. This is a great place, but it is a bit like a pit bull pit.

Never jump in the middle of their house. If you look like a fire hydrant, you will likely get urinated on. If you gently offer to make friends with some hamburger they may eventually ignore you and even lick you in the face. Of course, that will only happen after they sniffed your butt.

This whole thing reminds me of the salesman thread. Scott’s experience at some of these frame shops may have been a reaction to one too many sales pitches and how to loose weight seminars.

[ 10-24-2003, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[Ron Eggers]

Everyone is allowed to express an opinion here and whether you agree or not is your perogative. That works for me, FramerGuy, so maybe Sammy is entitled to HIS opinion, too.

Less, I honestly don't know what happened to your Craig Ponzio "joke." I considered zapping it, but didn't.

I didn't miss it 'til you mentioned it, though, so I hope you're not losing sleep over it.

[Less]

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[ 10-24-2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

[GUMBY, GCF]

This reminds me a lot of the baseball bat framing article that Neilson did in one of their newsletters. Remember cut the bat in half and screw it to the backing.

[Marc Lizer]

Gumby,

That was a Crescen Brain Fart.

http://thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000300

[ 02-26-2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: framer tg: ]

[GUMBY, GCF]

Marc your right! It was Crescent.

[El Framo]

I would like to see someone defend the notion that it was Crescent. Can I be any more of a jerk (a joke)?

[GUMBY, GCF]

Fun thing;
When I do research ie. marketing I don't list all the things a poorly run business does. I make a list of the things a well run successful business does.
If you want to be healthy you study people who are healthy. You do not study people who are sick.
Tony Robbins

[ 10-24-2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: GUMBY ]

[RozR]

Originally posted by GUMBY:
Fun thing;
When I do research ie. marketing I don't list all the things a poorly run business does. I make a list of the things a well run successful business does.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you want to be healthy you study people who are healthy. You do not study people who are sick.
Tony Robbins </font>[/QUOTE]This is all too true and very positive. BUT.... But if something is not healthy, you have to figure out what is wrong in order to fix it!! And sometimes we are too close to the forest to see the trees. And sometimes it is going over the "checklist" and seeing if there is something that needs attention. I try to step outside the box and hard as it may be, see if I can figure a better way of doing things or improving my attitude to help my business.

On the fence... must be the Swiss side of my heritage!!

Roz

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Originally posted by ScottStratten:
......My diploma is still unframed and in my closet, so I’m off to try some more stores. Now where did I put my cap? ........We're open from 10am to 7pm, Monday through Friday and Saturdays from 10am to 4pm.

Our website also "Canadian Friendly" with all the provinces preloaded in the Shopping Cart. ;)

Jon

[indy]

Scott, don't let Bob get you down. It's widely known that his shop is named Carter's Frame Shop because he hasn't learned any new techniques since Jimmy was in the White House.

[Bob Carter]

Hey Indy-This remind me of a story. Years ago, I played a little football-wasn't particularly good, but I played.

After a pretty good play I made, my teammates were high fiveing me and doing what athletes do when some guy from the opposing team yelled out "Hey, Carter-you ain't worth s**t".

My response was "At least you know who I am, and none of us have clue who you are"

Both huddles had a good laugh and we played on.

He was right, of course, but somehow he knew who I was

[ 10-25-2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]

[ScottStratten]

We're open from 10am to 7pm, Monday through Friday and Saturdays from 10am to 4pm.

Our website also "Canadian Friendly" with all the provinces preloaded in the Shopping Cart. ;)

Jon:D You can imagine after doing the seminar for the framers I had quite a few people come up to me and ask one of two questions:

1. Was my store one of the ones you came into?

2. Can you come buy our store, and bring your diploma with you ;)

Scott

[B. Newman]

Originally posted by Bob Carter:
but somehow he knew my name and none of us had any idea who he was. Yep! Just be sure you spell my name right!
That's Newman, with a W :D ;)

Bet

[Dermot]

Indy

Your remarks about Bob are totally uncalled for…….Bob has being one of the most valued business contributors on this BB………I may not always agree with Bob analysis……but never has he not stimulated my mind and thought process…….and that’s what good business advice is all about

Indy on this occasion.....you have being down right rude……shame on you…….


Dermot

[Nuisance]

Scott, I just wanted to add that I did see your seminar at the show in Toronto sponsored by Neilsen & Bainbridge. I would like to add that i thought it was very enlighting because we have all had that annoying customer call on the phone to ask how much will it cost for......and hold our breathe on the other line as our eyes roll back into our heads!!!!
I did walk away from the seminar with some very useful and workable tools that I will learn to exercise in my frame shop. The other comment I would like to stress to everyone is that Neilsen & Brainbridge a very good supplier to picture framers other than Larson juhl offered us a FREE seminar to help us (retailers & picture framers) with our issues of how to increase our marketability. I appreciated the time and efforts it took to put this into effect for our sole benefit. It was truly beneficial and I walked away with some plus'. Not many others (Larson Juhl) have ever done or gone out of their way to do anything for me.

So hats off to you Scott & Neilsen & Bainbridge. My mom always says-Those whom scream the loudest have the most to keep quiet about!!!!

[ScottStratten]

It's nice to hear from someone who was actually at the seminar!! Validation that I exist!!! Now all I need is for someone to say they read the my story in the latest issue of the Bevelled Edge, and my life will be complete ;)

I'm glad you enjoyed the session, N&B has been very committed to helping you guys grow your business, we will be doing even more together in 2004! I can't wait!!!

Scott