framing silver - again

[Rosalyn]

I recently posted a query regarding mounting and framing a place setting of silver.

I'm considering passing this off because after doing the research on the items Rebecca described in her reply . . . I don't want to buy a whole carton, etc.

Will the silver tarnish really, really, bad and really, really quick if I use rag mat?

[Cliff Wilson]

Yes.

I have a customer with a silver spoon (her baby spoon) framed. She has been bringing this thing back to "a framer" EACH year for about ten years. She has to take it out and clean it then have it mounted again. The last time a new framer at the other shop used silicone to attach it and she was angry. So, she brought it to me. I changed the whole setup to a Mighty mount and turnbuttons on the back. Now she can take it out and clean it and put it back whenever she wants. (She has since brought in 2 other jobs and I am her framer!)

The main point is ... the package was all rag and it still tarnished ... fairly quickly.

Cliff

[Ron Eggers]

Rosalyn,

You really love this business forum, don't you?

Many of your topics will get more attention on the main Grumble forum. This one is pretty-much devoted to the nuts-and-bolts of accounting, marketing, pricing and other mundane topics, as well as some discussions about our trade magazines. Some of the creative types avoid it at all costs for fear they might learn something from Bob Carter.

It's not a big deal, but check out the main forum. (The one right above this one.)

Sorry, I don't know nothin' 'bout framin' no silver.

[ 10-10-2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]

[Rosalyn]

Sorry Ron I'll go play somewhere else smile.gif

[JPete]

Rosalyn, Welcome to the grumble...Ron is correct about the forum and some of the rest of us should have suggested it before we replied to your posts. You may actually get some more information on the grumble forum.

[Rebecca]

Rosalyn,

The only other thing I can think of is a laquer coating. This is anathema to many dealers/collectors but....A silver place should be able to tell you more about the options.

Rebecca

[PurplePerson]

I am afraid of laquer coating because as you probably are saying, the conservation problems.

I have alwasy put that little door in the back so the people can clean them themselves. I often tie the little forks and spoons, etc with ribbons that I inserted from the back. Anything to make them easily removable.

Now, Rebecca, what does the cleaner do conservationally to the silver and what should we be telling customer's to use?

I have even heard of people putting the silver in a pan of boiling water with cream of tartar in it. Then letting the pan sit to cool. The silver is beautiful, but what does it do to it?

[Rebecca]

The only lacquer that I'm familar with for use on silver is an acrylic resin Acryloid B72. It can be dissolved in xylene and sprayed on warmed silver (warm to prevent orange peeling). It can be removed with xylene, but would need soaking in the solvent for a day or so.

Other lacquers, like some painting varnishes, may cross-link over time and be difficult or impossible, to remove.

Re cleaning, each time you clean silver you are removing a layer of silver. This will eventually strip silver plating, and wear away engraving, maker's marks etc. So it's best to keep cleaning to a minimum. Either let the tarnish form, and leave it, or protect the silver from tarnishing (lacquer, silver cloths, zip lock bags...).

Re dips etc, they work well, but can over clean. Dealers and collectors like a soft patina. Also, dips clean out tarnish from the engraving, making them more difficult to read. Those in the trade usually use one of the fine fine fine abrasive cleaners, like jeweller's rouge, and a soft flannel and elbow grease, followed by a wash and soft cloth dry.

Rebecca

[ 10-13-2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Rebecca ]

[jframe]

About 15 years ago I took some smoke damaged medals (over 400) to a plating company for cleaning. I was amazed at the amount of business they did. There were silver and brass decorative accessories in various stages of cleaning, plating and lacquering everywhere.

Lacquer is pretty standard treatment for many metal items that rarely get touched. I'm not familiar with the acrylic lacquer, but I sort of doubt they were using acrylic at that time and for the sake of employees, I hope they use acrylic now. It is a job that you don't want to attempt to do yourself. You just can't keep all the contaminants and fuzzies out before the lacquer is completed and dried. Even the tiniest bit of moisture would be a disaster if sealed under lacquer.

If you do go the lacquer route, be very careful not to scratch the lacquer. I'm sure might mounts would scratch it. You can even scratch it with fingernails and jewelry.

[Emibub]

Hey guys, what is wrong with a little tarnish? I've made several of these to sell in my store, at my booth and now for an old historical house that opens for the holiday season. I have deliberately looked for tarnished pieces. Plus I beat the #### out of most of them to get them into the frames. Long story.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgAAAN4VbBv1cd8k5!cyur5pVsLaEO9Hm0VZMkufJzwV9aJoA i073o1yGgmCTF4BuOm0pY*TqBZIr8ZzLRBPioPyDhycoARFpVT imd2gC9DMq6XH9l6Xig/P1010038.jpg

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgDKAtgV5xn1cd8k5!cyusyihFo42i7Xufea8iBWayEChUJJf KbPvAW6W5fvAr66NCJEugV7uYX*a!3KwTyaxyvutKcr7CYP!Qm Cg4ag0gIZcPaLt1tqYA/P1010041.jpg

[ 10-14-2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]

[Terry Scidmore CPF]

I have a silver spoon on display in my store that I polished with silver polish, then glued with silicon to a Crescent Suede matboard. It was framed about 15 years ago, and is showing a small amount of tarnish on the tip of the handle. I taped the edges of the framing package with 810 tape, so perhaps it gets less air and this is the reason that it hasn't tarnished more quickly. I wanted to see how long before it tarnished because I had heard that silver tarnished quickly when in contact with the silicon. Some silver pieces I tried tarnished very quickly, but this one has not. The spoon is not coated.

This summer I framed a silver ingot (and the information is somewhere in the archives). Several grumblers, and Hugh and Rebecca helped so much! As briefly as possible, here is what I found out:

1)As Rebecca wrote,the coating is usually an acrylic spray. It is best applied by someone who has experience in doing it. The cost is anywhere from $35 to $125 according to the companies I contacted.

2)My understanding from the people who coat the metals is that light breaks down the acrylic coating, which will last about 10 years on average. No one knew if UV filtering glazing products would help (I have UV filtering glazing on the framed spoon in my store just for the heck of it), because no one knew what part of the UV spectrum contributed to the breaking down of the acrylic coating and whether the UV filtering glazing was filtering out that portion of the spectrum, and how effective the glazing is in the typical home environment instead of a museum display environment. No one knew if it was the UV part of the spectrum that was breaking down the coating, or if it was the visible part of the light spectrum.

3)My understanding is that the coating is removed by sand blasting it off or using solvents, both of which do more harm to the silver than simply polishing the silver occasionally and then putting it back into the frame. Before the coating is applied and after the coating is removed, the silver has to be buffed, polished, and cleaned.

4)My understanding is that silicon fumes given off during the drying process would probably hurt the coating. One coating person told me that it was the fumes, and not the glue, that caused the tarnishing problem.

5)I framed the ingot using a combination of Hugh's and Rebecca's suggestions. The ingot was polished and cleaned, but not coated, placed on a piece of silver cloth, then encapsulated in mylar. The package is placed into the opening of the mat, and the frame is designed so that there is access to the part where the ingot is.

6)The customer was in on the decision making process, and understands that the framing is really just a best guess experiment. We are waiting to see what happens.

Hope this helps a little!

[Terry Scidmore CPF]

Ooohhhhh! Kathy! I just saw your pictures! Those are wonderful!!!!!

[D_Derbonne]

I agree. Your framed spoons are wonderful, Kathy.
Now if we could just see the pictures of those bulletin boards.

[Rebecca]

Kathy, you've got doll dresses too! Someday when I am mobile, Dr. Phil and I are going to visit your shop - it must be like entering Aladdin's cave!

Rebecca

[ 10-15-2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Rebecca ]

[Rosalyn]

When you say 'silicone' do you mean just regular silicone adhesive from the hardware store?

If I applied the silicone and made it so the frame could be opened to polish the silver would the cusomter just polish the silver while still on the mat, would that be possible, or have to take it to a framer and have it completely redone?

Kathy - what's the mat you have used in your pictures? They are really neat. I was thinking something like a Cresent Suede or maybe a velvet-like cloth but those look really fun instead of something 'dressy'.

[Rosalyn]

If I applied the silicone and made it so the frame could be opened to polish the silver would the cusomter just polish the silver while still on the mat, would that be possible, or have to take it to a framer and have it completely redone? Ignore this. I went back re-read Cliff's comments. -- Honestly, I am paying attention smile.gif

[Emibub]

Thanks for the compliments guys! I didn't mean to frankenthread.......just wanted to show how cool tarnished looks. Roslyn, they aren't mats. A couple are old floursack fabric and some are actually scrapbook paper mounted on to matboard. I've been playing around with my camera again, so I will post some stuff in the projects forum. Including the aprons, Deb.

Rebecca, I will anxiously await yours and Dr. Phils arrival, frankly I think I need the intervention. I don't remember what Aladdin's cave looked like, I hope it is a good thing.

Sorry for the diversion.......

[ 10-15-2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Emibub ]

[Terry Scidmore CPF]

Rosalyn - regarding the type of silicon adhesive to use: I was told to use silicon adhesive used as aquarium sealant so that it is pure silicon without any additives. You can find it in most hardware store and many variety stores.If you are going to use it - there is a lot of information in the archives about silicon and problems associated with using it for many types of framing situations.

[JPete]

Kathy, you should go on the road with all of your creative ideas, during the slow season. Thanks for sharing.