Would you believe this?

[clifpa]

A prospect comes in yesterday with a really nice poster, 20 x 25, lots of people in white with grayish pencile shading on their faces with mixtures of reds middle to upper part of post. A 3/16 goldish border and on the bottom the name of their company.

Women says, my boss saw this framed by one of the big boxes with a mat, looked really nice, for around $48 bucks. No way I say.

Her boss wants to do 10-20 for gifts but wants to check my price for the lot.

She didn't like the plain small frame I showed her first.

She gave me a poster to keep left me to come up with a price? I think I can make money at around 80 bucks but looks like I start loosing money after that.

How would you handle this? I hate to just say I can't do it?

Help, Cliff :confused:

[RozR]

Cliff, I have had this situation occur several times. It is difficult to think of losing a sale, but you have to give it your best shot and if the $80 is that with you still making some $$ that is what it has to be.

We are in business to provide a service and use quality materials and it comes at a price. This is the price. If the customer is not willing to pay, why should you not make money because they don't want to spend money!?!

And, I too, find it hard to believe it was $48 at a big box... hmmm. You never know what tactics a customer plays to get what he feels is his best price.

You have to feel good about what you do and who you do it for. So just provide a quote for the work spelling out your quality and service!

Roz

[AWG]

Cliff:

One of the seminars I attended at Decor addressed this situation. One of the things talked about on "big" jobs ("big" is relative, of course) is pricing them on a cost-plus basis, rather than a straight retail price. Figure the cost of materials (on a quantity like this, think buying box quantity for savings you can "pass on"), add a reasonable profit per piece, and give them a quote.

I think this is the kind of job that smaller shops like many of us run (myself included) are going to continue to lose to the big box places. Even with the box price savings we still can rarely touch their lower costs. In the old days we could get them, but as Ms and others figure the profit from their custom frame counters I'm afraid we'll lose more and more of these. I've bid on a couple this year and missed out on every one. :mad:

One of things we do on jobs like this to help differentiate us from them is to offer delivery and installation when it's reasonable. We list this seperately on the quote. Something like:
"Total price of $4800, including $400 for delivery and installation" (OK, I'm dreaming about a $4800 job, forgive me) :D

Sure, it would be great to get the job, but if you have to price it at cost or below what's the sense??? It kills me whenever we lose work, but if I do too many of these "cheapie" jobs I won't be here too long. :eek:

All that being said, I have had people give me a low-ball number from somewhere else, ask for my price, and give me the job even though I was higher. It's obvious they didn't have a real quote, they're just throwing out a number. :rolleyes: Some of these folks don't care about busting your b***s to get a lower price based on some made-up number they have in their head.
Good Luck,
Tony

[ 09-20-2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: AWG ]

[ColleenKennedy]

I have had this proble too, with a print of downtown . My solution I sent in secret shoppers at the big box stores and I have their estimates posted along with mine.

[ERIC]

Some customers know exactly what it costs and then bold face lie about 'the other shops price'.

Have you thought about ready-made's?

It may be a dirty word for some of us, but I worked with MTS for a large order. The customer got a great design for half of the cost, and I got full markup on the job, with a small % off of mats/mount/fit.

[Peter Bowe]

"If you can't sell it don't give it away" is one of our many shop mottos.

Over the years I have done a number of jobs where I should have taken $20 out of my pocket and handed it to the customer at the initial contact because that was the final result after the dust of a low bid job settled.

My advice to you is:
1) take the other guys price with a grain of salt
2) Build your estimate from the bottom up - realistically determine your actual cost for the job being sure to account for packaging, delivering, freight, waste ect. and then markup from there
3) base your figures on 10 with a 10 to 20 forecast
4) Keep in mind that any thing that can go wrong with 1 can go 20x as wrong.

I know from bitter experience that you can work really hard and make next to nothing on a job that you hate to see go down the street. Give a price that is fair to yourself and you might be suprised and get the job. If not let some other poor slob take the hit.

Peter Bowe
Saline Picture Frame Co.

[Terry Scidmore CPF]

Uhhh-huuuh! I had a customer try a similar thing by telling me that the nearby chain would charge her $17 to frame her 16 x 26 posters in a LJ oak moulding, with mount and nonglare glass. I politely gave her my price and turnaround time on an estimate sheet. She was flabergasted as to "how anyone can charge this much - why, it's criminal what you are charging!!!" After she stormed out, I called my friend who works at the chain and told her the story. Turns out the lady had never gotten a quote from them at all!
The customer came back the next night, asking me to drop my price to $20 per picture. She told her boss that she could get these framed for $15 to $17 per picture BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT SHE THOUGHT IT SHOULD COST. I explained that I couldn't frame them for what she was hoping, but I showed her alternatives, gave her estimates for each, and suggested that she take the estimates back to her boss and let him decide what he would like to do. I told her that her boss could call me and discuss any questions or concerns with me that he might have.
When her boss saw the estimates, he made his decision, and sent her in with about half of the posters.
Now when a customer tells me that they have an estimate that is just to good to be true, I smile, ignore it, and focus on what I can do for them at a realistic price.

[Susan May]

When we get a customer asking for a quote, we give them a quote. No price changes. No discounts. If they tell us the there will be more than one, we will tell them how many we need to get a dicount from our distributor, and that we would gladly give them the same percentage off. (10% for 10 or more jobs)

If a customer tells us that they got a quote for $40 at "XYZ Framing", we ask them what is in that price quote? Then we go on to explain what we are quoting. Nomally, they have no information about the materials, or quality of the job to be done... and we get the job. :D

Always ask them questions...
Always give tehm information...

Show them that price should not be the determining factor, quality is much more important.

[dns ynko]

Just remember if you cut your throat too much, they will come back and do it again. If they get you too loose money, these folks will come back in a year and want it for cheaper. Prices raise and it costs more, don't put yourself in a situation that might come back to get you later.
d

[Reynard]

Too true D.

Its hard to let someone walk out the shop like that but there are times when they are squeezing your balls just that bit too hard.You either get your reputation for being good or for being cheap.I know that I am undercut by someone in town but frankly he is welcome to the "dregs" as far as I am concerned.You can knock your pan out all day and make less than you do sometimes on a quality single item job.

I have a two tier pricing system to be honest.I have my "trade" prices which other galleries and dealers get charged along with one or two professional artists and the rest get charged the full whack.I,m not keen to drop the price for a one off job although you do have to think long and hard about it before allowing someone to leave the shop.

Its a tough one..

[Lance E]

Sell them something better.

If you can't compete on price then don't. As a small independent operator you should be easily able to WOW them with creativity to some degree.

[AWG]

We compete on quality and service. Period. Yes, we do some cost-plus pricing on big jobs but they are always done to OUR standard. No, we don't get many of these jobs, but our gallery has a reputation of high quality - it's one of the reasons we bought it.

When it comes to work, I'd rather do 1 $600 job than 6 $100 jobs.

Do the math:
1000 jobs @ $150 a piece === $150K
500 jobs @ $ 300 a piece === $150K

How hard do you want to work??

[Bob Carter]

Hard enough to do a lot more than $150k. So how about doing 1000 jobs @ $150 AND 500 jobs @$300 and have it be July.

How hard do you want to work? How about how much do you want to earn for you and your family?

This is way too much silliness about quality, as if you can't do quality work unless you have priced yourself out of the market.

This thinking is exactly why way too many of us don't make any serious money in this trade. A good blend of some great high end work, some great mid-range work and some fill in the slow periods work will fill the bucket a lot quicker than any one alone.

I always tell people in my classes that you can't be all things to all people. But I would rather be a lot of things to a lot of people, than a few things to a few people.

[clifpa]

Great advise and I agree, agree, agree!

So here is what I did today.

Went to Aaron Brothers with the poster.

Told them I want two quotes, 1 just the frame and glass and 2 a double mat.

1st one worked out to $102.25 with 50% discount on the frame.
Frame style 394-159 (1 1/2" simple blk) $51
UV Clear (their everyday) (22x28) $21
dry mnt $16
Fittings $14.25

Second, same frame add double mats - $196.50
Frame $62
each mat $32.50 - $65
UV Clear (32x40) $62
dry mnt $18
Fitting $15.50

I didn't stop here. I went to Michaels and gave them the same parimeters. Again, 50% off of frame.

They didn't give me a printout buy gave me my quotes on a tear sheet.

A little improvement on the blk frame. Design was much better.

No mat, blk frame, UV Clear, dry mnt = $182.23

Two mats, blk frame, UV Clear dry mnt = $243.00

You're all correct. I continue to panic with pricing. I'm killing myself trying to keep the price down so I get the 10-20 frame jobs. Not now.

I make good profit at the $120 mark each. Heck, I already include the fitting charges in my other cost.

Thanks again my friends!

best

[AWG]

Bob:
Perhaps I came across a bit strong. We'll bid on low-price jobs, but ONLY at profitable prices, and at a quality level that we find acceptable. Will we use paper mats? Not likely, and not as a first choice, but we'll make it an option.

A cheap job wll have a simple and generic frame but quality "guts". We re-do way too many chain frames to "sink" to their level (again, it sounds strong).

I agree with your point that we have to take work at all price points - and we do - but we won't and can't afford to do work at an unreasonable margin. We are a lot of things to a lot of people. Services, selection, quality are all part of the equation.

Cliff - Great idea to check out the "real" prices. How are you gonna handle her when she comes back??? That should be fun.

Tony

[dns ynko]

Tell her you can take care of it for $10.00, THEN CHUCK IT IN THE TRASH!!!

SORRY FOLKS I HAD TO.
D

[Reynard]

It must surely also depend on how much work you have on at the time?

If its a slow period then you will probably take on the low profit work to help things tick over.If not then you will most probably let them walk.I have plenty of cheapo mouldings that I can knock out for jobs like this but IF its a busy time with other better work then no thanks.

[Bill Henry-]

Several years ago, I was called into a physicians office to bid on a framing job which included fifteen or so pieces. The artwork, which was all S/N, had been purchased independently.

I spent about 1-3/4 hours measuring wall space and the art itself and once I returned to the shop another 45 minutes computing a “cost plus” estimate figuring that with volume I could cut costs and pass them along. The bid which was for Nielsen #75 moulding and Rag Mat came in at about $2250. I faxed the estimate in and about two days later, I got a call from the office manager who said, “I showed your estimate to another framer and he can do it for $100 less. Can you do any better?”

I told her that, yes, I could do it for less, but <u>wouldn’t</u>! I told her that I was not surprised that this other framer could do it for less since I had already done 10% of the work on it. I stated that I wouldn’t mind if I lost the bid if the other framer had come to the office and saw what needed to be done, but showing my bid to another framer, I thought, was unethical. And, as a parting shot, I said that if you were so weak in the ethics department, I wouldn’t want to deal with you, anyway.

A few years went by and I had occasion to have to go to that office as a patient. (I had torn up my knee in a sky diving accident … okay, let's be honest …I tripped over the dog). On my way back to the desk, I noticed that the framing job which I lost (bid for Nielsen #75 with Crescent Rag) turned out to be Nielsen #15 UN-matted. I did some quick calculations and figured that I could have done the same job for about $1400. I reintroduced myself to the office manager and very politely said if she had paid $2150 for that framing, she got screwed!

Although I lost the job, there was some satisfaction in knowing that their lapse of ethics cost them dearly.

[Reynard]

Thats something that really makes my blood boil.

I had a guy did almost the exact same thing to me a month or two ago.He runs a web design leaflet printing firm and he wanted a price for stuff.I spent a while sorting it all out then he went to another guy for the framing job.This fart in a bunnet trades two doors down from me and I find it quite hard to be civil to him at the moment :(

I feel like going into his place and getting him to spend an hour or two with me designing a website and then changing my mind at the last minute just when he thinks hes got the sale.

But that would be childish.

[Greg Fremstad]

My 2 cents on volume pricing: You must remeber that our regular prices include design time of perhaps 1/2 hour (sometimes more or less) for every frame. If you are doing 20 frames of the same design, you can amortize the one design time cost over the 20 frames. This is fair to both you and the customer. There is usually no difference in our prices based on degree of diffilculty of cutting, joining, or touching up frames. So, for example, on a simple round top oak you can do more frames faster than if it's a simple flat top satin finish black over flakey gesso.

I think to be fair, you must price volume frames jobs individually and without looking at your price lists. Iv'e found that most prices lists are some vairation of one that is printed by a moulding manufacturer who has no idea about your equipment, your overhead, how fast you work, how good you are, or how much profit you want to make.

Have you ever done a time study on how long it actually takes to do the basic parts of frames? How can you determine your prices otherwise?

[Bob Carter]

Hi Tony-No need to apologize. I often come across too strong on occassion and didn't mean my post to be criticizing. After re-reading it, I do see where it comes off like that.

I think the point you make is valid. Everything we do should be profitable. The problem comes from not doing enough profitable work more than the profit on any individual workorder.My suggestion was to not limit one's offering to a too finite a market, but rather take a more full wagon approach. I agree whole-heartedly with a sensible pricing policy while protecting your margins.

But, those considerations have no implications on quality unless you choose to do so. I'm sure you don't want to change that

See, we agree

[ 09-22-2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]

[Peter Bowe]

This fart in a bunnet trades two doors down from me and I find it quite hard to be civil to him at the moment Reynard,
I sympathise with you but I am also highly amused by the phrase "fart in a bunnet".

In my youth I worked with a crochety carpenter who refered to any careless or ineffectual person as a "fart in a mitten". Never heard the phrase any where else (although I've adopted it)

What is a bunnet?

Peter Bowe

[Jerry Ervin]

Originally posted by AWG:

When it comes to work, I'd rather do 1 $600 job than 6 $100 jobs.

Me too, but I would rather have the 6 @ $100 than nothing. I now have 2 locations. One of them is in a very economically depressed area, Lexington. The furniture industry is all but dead. I am doing very few $600 jobs there. My second location, Concord is in a better economic area than Kannapolis was but I still have people looking for the very cheapest price period. Sometimes it means dry mount on foam core metal frame and no mat. If that is what it takes, I'll take all I can get. I would really rather sell one $30,000 Timberlake original in the first week of every month and take the other three weeks off at the lake.

Talk to you later

[AWG]

I would really rather sell one $30,000 Timberlake original in the first week of every month and take the other three weeks off at the lake.

Amen, brother!

[ 09-22-2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: AWG ]

[Sammy]

Bob Carter well said!!!

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by Bob Carter:
...you can't be all things to all people. But I would rather be a lot of things to a lot of people, than a few things to a few people. Bob, I'm gonna frame that quote. OK?

[Bob Carter]

Jim-Just send that Royalty Check to:....

Call it the full wagon approach, the full bucket approach, call it whatever you want. But, the truth is the more you have to offer, the more probable you will have something to sell.

Of all the people that might learn from any advice I might proffer, Jim humbles me to think that I could teach him anything.

[Reynard]

Peter,

that was a well worn phrase that my grandfather used.

A bunnet is a hat.Or specifically a flat cap.

Fart in a mitten sounds quite cute actaully.I,ll use it for females that annoy me! :D