Pricing contract jobs

[Freda Framer]

We are struggling with quoting for a contract job. Not only is it a quantity, but it is also a physical challenge in that it is larger than oversize. We are a small shop and will need to keep the regular workload going at the same time.

We are currently pricing having the mats cut for us vs. having a special piece of cutting equiptment made to handle the job. There are so many variables here that it is hard to pin down a specific cost in producing this job. Although we have been in the framing business since 1989, we haven't run into this one before. We've been around long enough to know that whatever we anticipate that it would cost----that when we are finished it will cost more than predicted.

If anyone has had an experience like this we would appreciate any thoughts that you are willing to share. In this day and time, I am hesitant to turn it away.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Freda

[JRB]

If you are not sure of what is going to be involved in the project, take your best guess at a price and frame a couple of them up at that price. Making a test run like that should answer just about all of your questions. Make it clear to the customer that they are paying for a test run that is intended to establish the actual cost of each piece. Let them know that this could save them a lot of money throughout the project.

John

[Marc Lzier]

Step one: Take can of worms.

Step two: Open Can of worms.

Step three: Nobody like me, everybody hates me; guess I'll eat some worms. Long, slim, slimey ones. Short, fat, juicy ones. Itsy bitsy, fuzzy wuzzy, womrs!

Alright, enough with the bad humor and Camp Song lyrics. This may just get warp-a-doodled if I keep it up.

Freda,
Without giving up who the gig is for, we need more info.

Mat OD. This is also the same as the frame and plexi size?

Mat material? Rag? F/C? Sintra? Fabric wrap? Fabric wrap wood liner?

Backframe/strainer?

Quan needed/requested

Time frame for completion once you get the gig?

Dollar numbers you are hitting now.
Dollar numbers you think the customer is willing to pay.
Dollars you think (guess) the job really shoud cost. AND dollard you think (want) the customer should pay.

And, of course, anything else that would make this frame job less of an abstraction.

[tgfu408]

And jumping WAY AHEAD of things: what if the job repeats?

We did 140 small pieces where we ordered the moulding and got the box price. We made good money on the quantity and the customer ws happy.

Now they come back, want only six of them done at the same price as previously. Now I gotta explain why we can't do it at that reduced price: that we ordered moulding in quantity, ganged the mat cutting on our CMC, etc etc.

They may be understanding; then again, maybe not.

Y0u may want to keep this in mind when you quote.

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Michael LeCompte CPF

[Freda Framer]

I like the test idea--that may work, as they would probably like a sample early on. Also, I think the fact that a repeat order(s) might happen down the road is worth considering.

At this point in time, I have only part of the information, as the rest is being decided upon on a corporate level. At this point I believe it will be a double rag mat, in the quantities of 200+. The approximate size at this point is 45" x 75" with 2-3 openings. I expect to have 3-4 months to complete the job. It will require plexi and frame cut to the same OD (specific moulding undecided at this point. My biggest concerns right now are concentrated on getting quotes for outsourcing the mats or to build special equiptment for cutting them ourselves. I should have some figures in a couple of days on both concerns.
So far, all I have is a partially-opened can of worms!!!!!!!
Freda

[ArtLady]

Then you decide that you want to start the job on Tuesday and you open the box of mat boards and they are 30 X 40 instead of 32 X 40. Then you start kicking yourself for not checking the mats when they were received, but that just adds more cost to the job.


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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
Dahl Fine Art & Frame Design (http://www.DahlFineArt.com)
Shapahl Fine Art (http://www.Shapahl.com)

[JRB]

There is a mat cutter that I first saw demonstrated at the San Diego County Fair of all places. I can't recall the name of it although it is advertised in PFM and it's also been mentioned on The Grumble. This cutter will handle any length mat and is relatively low priced ( $300.00-$400.00 ). Perhaps one of the other Grumblers can recall the name of it. Anyway, it seemed to do a professional job.

John

[Frank]

I think if I had to do about 10-20 of these things I would build a jig or two out of wood or aluminum that would allow me to just set it down on a mat and use a hand cutter to cut the openings. For 200 of them I would look pretty hard to find someone else with a CMC large enough to cut them (if it exists). You might check with some manufacturers of CMCs to see if anybody makes one that large and who has purchased one. If not, you're stuck with a manual method.
Pricing this is going to be a real bugger. You'll have to figure out how long it will take to build the jigs and to cut the mats. This could really hurt you if you make a mistake. If you're a small shop it might be better to give this one a pass, or subcontract the entire job to a larger outfit, let them quote you a price, and mark it up a little for yourself.

[R Markoff]

Here's my 2 cents - and we do a lot of BIG jobs (size and volume). And, I have lost a ton of money learning the hard way about oversized pieces. We have 8 foot x 8 foot fitting tables and 18 foot ceilings.

If you are really going to do 200 mats (or even 50) you should consider an Infiniti cutter designed by Steve Albin. This cutter will cut any length matboard and you won't be spending time reinventing the wheel by building your own jigs.

Factor in the cost of the cutter into the job and it will be paid for before you are finished.

Do not lowball this job. This is bigger than oversized. If someone wants to lowball it, let them have the job, especially if you are a small shop. Each piece is bigger than one person can safely move. Remember, a $1.00's worth of bubble wrap can save a day's worth of work.

Things to also consider:

Mats of this size will need to be freighted in and more than likely, palletized to minimize damage. Be sure to factor in the cost of aquisition. Do you have a vendor who can supply the mats? Where are you going to store the uncut mats while doing the job? 200 48 x 84 mats take up a lot of room and can't just be leaned up against the wall. Same for backing material. DOUBLE mats this size are extremely difficult to cut and have multiple openings line up. Are you sure it has to be a double mat? If so, you may want to consider piecing the undermats from 40 x 60 material (will also give you a wider range of colors to choose from. Also consider making the undermat dimension 1/4" (or more) to minimize the effect of misalignment of the mats. The smaller the undermat dimension, the greater errors will show.

Where are you going to put the finished goods while waiting for them to be picked up?
Do you have to deliver them? If not, who is going to load them into the customer's vehicle? Time is money.

How are you going to wrap them up/protect them? My recommendation is 2 mil sheet plastic. Acrylic is a static magnet and needs to be protected while waiting to be picked up/installed. Corner protection is also a must. This needs to be factored into the job (plus 2" packing tape).

A sheet of acrylic that size needs adequate support and needs to be at least .118 thick. I am not sure that 3/16" fome-cor is an appropriate backing material without a strainer. If you are going to use .118 acrylic in your bid, be sure to point that out. Some other framer may bid it with .100 or even .080 (both of which will "pillow" in the frame)

What moulding are you going to use? Is the rabbet deep enough for a strainer? For adequate backing material? Can you get the lengths you need without a huge amount of waste? If they are 10 foot sticks, you can't get a long and a short out of each stick. Each length will require a ten foot stick to yield a 75" piece and you can't get a short out of the remainder. You can get two shorts out of a ten foot piece, but you will also have a couple of feet of waste as well. The yield on this job will be terrible. Will there be footage allowances throughout the sticks or can you get 70"+ pieces? Be sure to ask your vendor for the stick lengths before submitting the quote and factor in waste.

[This message has been edited by R Markoff (edited October 30, 2001).]